SPEAKER_04 0:04

We're listening to the Hanging with the AD podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and lessons learned through leadership. Now we're your hosts, Josh Matthews and Don Baker. Welcome back to another edition of the Hanging with the AD podcast. Today's guest is one of the most innovative and forward-thinking leaders in college athletics. Dan Hauser serves as the Vice President and Director of Athletics at High Point University in High Point, North Carolina, a position he's held since 2014. Before arriving at High Point, Dan built a strong foundation in athletic administration and marketing serving in leadership roles at Ohio University, Wake Forest University, and the University of New Mexico. Over the last decade, he has helped transform High Point Athletics into one of the nation's most accessible and recognizable mid-major programs. Under his leadership, High Point has consistently competed at a championship level across multiple sports, earned national recognition in the Learfield Directors' Cup standings, and become known for delivering one of the most unique and impactful student athlete experiences in higher education. Bad's influence extends far beyond wins and losses. He is a passionate believer in leadership, personal growth, dreaming big, and creating environments where people can achieve more than they ever thought possible. In this conversation, we'll discuss High Point's rise to national prominence, the power of reading and lifelong learning, leadership lessons from High Point's president's own unique leadership journey, the importance of presence and culture, navigating the rapidly changing landscape of college athletics and how leaders can turn ambitious visions into reality. Whether you're an athletic director, coach, educator, or simply someone who wants to lead at a higher level, you are going to take something valuable away from this home run of a conversation. So sit back, enjoy, and let's get to know the man behind one of the most remarkable success stories in college athletics, Dan Hauser.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Dan, we're so glad to have you joining Don and me for this episode of Hanging with the ADs. I believe you wrapped up your athletic season for the year and our summer break. We just had that discussion off the air, which is not much of a summer break, but uh you're busy and you also probably probably want to get away a little bit. So thanks for taking time to carve out with us.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

My pleasure. Great to visit with y'all today.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, so for our listeners, Dan Hauser is the vice president and director of athletics at High Point University in High Point, North Carolina. Some of you may have heard of it, some of you may not, but after today, you're gonna want to go look up the great things at High Point. Uh, Dan has been in this role since summer of 2014. He just rolled into year 13 at High Point by my count. So Dan's been uh Dan has a background in marketing, an extensive marketing background working in that area in athletic departments of Ohio University, Wake Forest University, and the University of New Mexico prior to coming to High Point. So he's well traveled as most athletic administrators are at his level. Uh, Dan has had an exceptional career as an athletic administrator, and we want to talk about some of that. But before we do, let's let Dan have a moment and tell us a little bit more about himself. Uh, Dan, we call this the back of the baseball card bio. So tell us what the back of Dan Hauser's baseball card might look like.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Well, I mean, I got in this business just because I love the athletics. I kind of grew up around it uh through the high school days and and kind of got attached. I grew up in Raleigh and um just around ACC sports and and grew to love sports and felt like, can I make a career of this and make money out of this, out of this and do this? And so I pursued a master's degree in sports administration and at AT State and then tried to chase my dreams. My first job was out at the University of New Mexico. And uh it's kind of funny. I I wanted to be in college sports because I just believed in the amateurism and and graduating and providing student athletes with opportunities that maybe uh propel their life forward that a college degree can um relative to the to that experience. Uh, but as I've been in it now, now I'm in pro sports. Uh there's no doubt about it. I tried to not be in pro sports, but I'm in pro sports uh some 30 years later.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

And you didn't even really laugh when you said that initial uh desire to be an amateur athletics. It's almost comical now, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:36

It is, it is. I I still am rooted in that philosophy. You know, I I I I cringe at uh not that I don't I'm not afraid of the transfer portal, but I I it does I am worried that our graduation rates are gonna just plummet because uh student athletes are going to four and five schools, and their goal is uh progress toward degree and not getting a degree, and their goal is just to be eligible at every single one of those stops, and they're losing credit hours every single change of schools, and we're just gonna end up uh doing a great disservice to them and not getting them diplomas that can change their lives and prepare them for success when sport stops, and sport stops for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

That's right. Now, you probably have the numbers. Don and I being in the high school arena, we don't. Even though we kind of poo-pooed the the paid for play now, it's still they're getting a degree for the most part, the majority, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, I would say, you know, we have 420 student athletes here, and I'd say it's 95% are getting the degree. I do think, though, that I see um uh, you know, what used to be maybe um uh football and basketball issues, we have soccer players that are transferring three schools, we've got volleyball girls that are transferring two and three schools, baseball players. So what used to be isolated is now becoming more broad, uh lacrosse players transferring multiple schools. And so there, if you took it as a percentage of increase in those areas and impact in those areas, it's significantly growing. But you are correct overall, uh probably 90, 95% of student athletes are still getting a degree.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

At least that gives you something to step back and say we're still doing what we're meant to do. I think a lot of times the outsiders of us, we uh we we look at the negative and want to focus on that when y'all are still doing uh accomplishing the objective of collegiate athletics.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

All right, let's jump right in. I wanted to talk about something I know you're very proud of, and that's performance across all sports at high point. Uh, if I want to brag on our school a little bit, we just won our director's cup this year. Uh and it and the same thing. Y'all call it the Learfield Cup. Uh, your program is in the top 50, according to what I heard, but y'all have less than 7,000 students, and you're located in a small town in North Carolina that a lot of people, like I said earlier, probably haven't heard of. So, two questions. Number one, what's the secret? And more importantly, what is the lesson for the people out there who think they're too small with too little resources to compete with the big boys?

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up that stat. You know, we're in the 20th percentile of all college athletics uh with our ranking in Learfield Cup standings. There's 365 schools, and we're in that 20th percentile. So it, you know, were we there 14 years ago when I first got here? I would say we weren't even close. But uh 14 years, excuse me, 13 years later now, you know, we are we are uh you know at that at that point. Um for me, I think the the secret uh to success is people. People create change and people create um, you know, uh the success that that you everyone celebrates. We won 16 conference championships this year for our 17 sports. Now that includes regular season and tournament, but 16 titles. And I think there was two or three sports that we finished in second place. 12 years ago when I got here, we were winning two or to three conference championships. And and the reason and the way we created that change was we got the right people to be excited about High Point University. We sold a vision to them that excited them to come here. And they they bought into the belief that High Point is a school that garners great opportunity for them to create success. So uh that was the the number one palm move on the chessboard, I guess, is is getting the right coaches and the right people and leadership team in place. The second thing is um for me was uh to really send a message and a vision to our entire athletic department. Um for 12 years I beat this drum. And that and that's that's uh uh this belief that we belong in the top 50 of Learfield, this belief that we belong we should win the Sasser Cup uh every single year. And when I first got here 12 years ago, I I started a uh meeting with all of our sport teams and sharing them a vision and talking about the Sasser Cup. And I was shocked at how many people had never heard of the Sasser Cup, no clue it even existed, what it even meant. And so I was like, wow, these people aren't focused in on excellence, these people aren't focused in on uh changing their dynamic, they're just in the reality of the day-to-day, and I'm a big believer, I'm a big visionary person, and so we talked about that, and sure enough, we've now won, having beat that drum for many, many years, we've now won the Sasser Cup five years in a row. We've gone from winning three championships to now 16 in a given year. Last year we had 13 conference championships, so that was a part of it, and then I also shared the fact that um we had never won an NCA tournament game from any sports. So I shared that. And for years we talked about how we had a zero there, and then we had a women's lacrosse team do it, then we had a baseball team do it, a soccer team do it, and we just had a basket men's basketball team do it this past year. So I think when you as a leader paint the vision and you paint where you want to go, and you tell everyone in the room to believe that you deserve all of that success and let's figure out how to chase it down. Um, I think those are the two main things that I would say. Now, of course, you've got to identify strategic initiatives and you've got to uh uh create a hierarchy of what you're going to achieve. But to me, those were the two root things that set us on this pathway for success.

SPEAKER_04 11:06

Really good. We're gonna lean into that belief piece uh in a little bit. Kind of want to take a take an exit ramp for just a second. We recently saw an interview actually with a student athlete interviewing you, and in the background was a stack of books on your desk. And we have stated many times that leaders are readers. Uh, we we talk about what Reading Books has done for our leadership, but maybe talk about what it's done for your leadership. What are the intangibles that come from being a leader who reads?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Oh, it's it's immeasurable. It it really uh challenges your mind to um think differently about your role. Um, it challenges you uh to grow uh because um being a real good, a true leader means you're daily trying to grow and become better. Um and um I share leadership books with my entire athletic department staff. Uh every single person on my staff, we've gotten leadership books. I mean, John Gordon's one of our one of our favorites for sure, but you know, the the energy bus is one that I shared with with um with all of my staff. Uh, and we read that and we talk about that in head coaches meetings. I have each head coach sometimes talk to me about what our leadership book means to them and what are they getting out of the book. Um, and I think you have to project that on to your staff. It's sometimes it's this this continuing education piece is not a given. Um, I was fortunate to have a great leader in uh in Ron Wellman, who is the AD at Wake Forest, who guided me down this pathway. Kirby Ho Cut also is someone who I've came come along with who's the AD at Texas Tech, uh been there a long time, created great success. And they taught me the importance of leadership books and reading and continuing to grow as a leader. And I've taken those lessons and and tried to pass that on to our staff. I tell people all the time that um if I can take one of my staff members, and let's just put it in basketball terms, and they're a four-point average a game scorer, and if I can turn them into an 18-point a game average scorer, man, that's leadership 101. And I'm doing the powerful work that's going to make our organization grow and get better. And so I totally and truly believe in that.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

That's so good. You uh Brian Dodd, he's a leadership expert that we've had on here before, and he talks about the power of books, and he's a huge reader and an author as well. And he he mentions it may cost you 20 bucks to go buy a book from some leadership expert. It probably cost you 20 grand to get them to come in to you know to pour into your people. But for $20, you've got a gold mine right there that you can then turn and pour into your people. So I think it's a home run of an idea.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

And one other thing that I I've done and I've learned along the way is um I do leadership academies. And so I have assistant coaches that are aspiring to be head coaches, and I lead a five-session leadership academy with them. Um, and I try to get them to grow uh through those through those sessions along the way. Now that's time investment for me, and and I'm gonna be making assistant coaches stronger and better. And the risk there is that they could find another job and leave. That's the risk. Um, but I'll take that risk any day if I can get those individuals to grow and get better. Even if I have an assistant coach who's gone through my leadership academy and they they stay with me only 18 more months. The 18 months I have them is better than the previous 18 months. I do the leadership academy for assistant coaches, and it's a nomination. You nominate the head coaches nominate you for the leadership academy, and then I'll do the leadership academy for my assistant directors below my executive staff. And so those executive staff members nominate an individual that want to go through the leadership academy. Again, extreme investment of time on my behalf, but nothing is more valuable than doing those types of exercises.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

Yeah, that's I think Zig Ziglar's the one that what if I pour into people and they leave and then what if you don't pour into them and they stay, right? Yes, yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I was gonna say that Zach same quote. I'm glad you had the person to name it. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's good. I love that. Hey, we'd be remiss. You have your book that you're gonna give out next year. Can we get a sneak preview?

SPEAKER_02 15:35

I don't have it identified yet. I've got a couple that I'm I'm zeroing in on. Um, one of them is uh dealing with customer service. Um uh and it was written uh by the head of Marriott. Um so that's one that I'm I'm considering for for them to buy because um I've it my roots are in sales and and everything I think you do is interactive with people. Um, and and coaches are interacting with parents, coaches are interacting with student athletes, and so you're constantly selling something and you're constantly having to work with people. So that's one of the books that that I'm considering now. I usually do this exercise over the summer um and then try and zero in on the one, the one that that I choose. Uh, but that that's one that I'm debating on right now.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I'm right there with you. Usually my summers, early summers, trying to figure out that book if I haven't gotten through it through my spring reading, and uh that's you know, that's always the objective going in the summer before July. Like which book, which book am I ordering for our coaches for sure? Yes. All right, Dan, we're about to uh get to the great things you and others have led at high point. You've already mentioned several of those uh through the accomplishments of athletics, but as a segue, please expand on a term you use to describe yourself. I I heard this and you were talking in another uh conversation. You said you are not a past liver. The way you said it's like, man, that's a different way to say it. I love it. Um, how do you balance previous experiences and the habits or maybe scar tissue those create versus seeing around the corner moving forward to new and better? Maybe it's not a balance. I know a lot of people use the windshield and the rearview mirror analogy when talking about past and future. Uh how do you you you describe yourself as a past liver, but you also probably have to use those experiences. So how do you how's that work in your life?

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Well, I think you know, my journey from New Mexico to wake to Ohio to here, I I learned in that journey that um you have to create unique solutions and ideas for where you are in the moment and the place you are. Um and while I I loved every one of those jobs, I tried to approach the job in that manner. Uh, and and I I learned quickly that I couldn't box up my New Mexico ideas, a school that had 20,000 students, and the average age of the student was like 23 years old because it was a real commuter school and it's Albuquerque and it's a million people in the state, and it's a very pro-sport feeling thing. I couldn't box up New Mexico ideas and walk into the Wake Forest job, open up the briefcase, and those ideas work. In fact, it was that'd be a disaster. And so the past liver mentality is that like all that is great, and it is it is knowledge and information and it's experiences, but you really have to dive into the solutions in the now, the the strategic initiatives in the now. Um, and one of the I'm not also I'm also not a believer, uh some people might might might shake their head at this. I don't I don't do 10-year strategic plans either here at Ohio Point University. We we do annual plans. I don't do five-year plans, 10-year plans because who knows the impact of AI, technology. I may I may lose my top three coaches uh in certain sports. How is a five-year or 10-year plan going to be able to adapt to that challenging environment? So we live in one-year annual plans, and I challenge my staff every year. I'll send this out. It's it's gonna be going out probably next week, but I challenge every head coach to create an annual plan and every director of a unit to create an annual plan. I've done this for 12 years in a row. Um, it'll be the 13th coming up, but that that individual needs to create a list of six hierarchy goals they're gonna achieve this upcoming year. Um, and I don't tell them what order to put them in. I don't even tell them the goals. You just tell me the six uh goals that you're gonna be working on this upcoming year in hierarchy order. I want underneath each goal, I want you to tell me four to six new strategic initiatives that you're implementing this year that you haven't in the past that's gonna help you uh achieve the goal above you. Uh and you need to do those four to six strategic initiatives for all six goals. And those strategic initiatives need to be new, they need to be creative, they need to have a person assigned to them, they need to be measurable, and they need to have a due date. When is it due? When is it?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

That's one of the most comprehensive things I've heard.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

That's all and and our entire team does this every single year. So I tee it off in the summer, and then I get these uh August 15th or August 20th, I get everyone's plans to me. Uh, and the great thing for me as a leader is in one day or one week, I know what my entire athletic department is focused in on for the year. I know what they're uh they're attempting to achieve as a leader, and I try to read I read every single one of those plans. And how can I, as athletic director, invest myself in every single one of these strategic initiatives to try and support them towards their success. Um, and that exercise has been gold for me. Uh, and again, we focus in on that. And the other thing I'll mention about the exercise, this is not meant to be an A-graded annual plan versus an F graded annual plan. If you want to create change, you have to inject new things into the system and your organization every single year. And if you had six goals and they had 24 strategic initiatives in that in that annual plan, if half of those work and half of those come true, we are creating positive change. So it's not about 50% of them worked and the other 50 didn't work, so you get an F as a leader. That's not the exercise at all. While I want all of them to work, sure, who does? The exercise is about initiating a change and transformation in your organization. And that's why we do the process. And our proof is we've gone from a 3.16 GPA to a 3.49. We've gone from winning three championships to 16, never winning the SASERC up to five years in a row, never winning an NCA tournament game to now it's just commonplace. That's the results of that. And I share the success and the process every time, and it feeds the engine.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

That's, I mean, as you talked about that annual plan, that exercise, you kept using the word new goals and new strategic initiatives and new and new. And basically, you're creating change within that coach because they're having to find new ways. It's all almost reminds me of the banana ball thing. Every day they come up with new ideas. They have to sit down and brainstorm new ideas. They they're going to do the same thing. Your coaches, they could have the same goal, right? But they've got to have new initiatives under those, which makes it a whole new goal, per se, or at least new. So yeah, that you're you're you're you are pushing change without saying change. It sounds like.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Who doesn't want to improve recruiting? You know, every coach would want to improve recruiting, but how are you going to do that? And and that a strategic initiative might read, uh, a real good one might read. Um, you know, talent in the state of Texas for the sport of lacrosse is exploding. And so we are going to financially put X amount of resources into our assistant coaches going to Texas uh six times this coming year when we we we only went once in the past, and we're gonna do that, and the person in charge of that and the due date is here. That initiative and being that specific, you can measure whether those efforts result in four more Texas recruits or not, right? Um, uh and and those are things. So those are the that's what I you know challenge our staff in new strategic, uh measurable, um, and and and creative in that regard.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, I think I think it's semantics a little bit, but it's positive, negative semantics, right? You use the word new, you just said it there. It's like commonplace for you to use that positive word, a new news of positive, right? Yes, we all want a new car, we all want new stuff. But if you were to tell a coach, hey, change your goals, change your initiatives, change, that coach is gonna say, wait a minute, we're we're doing that, we just want an NCAA game. Why should I change? Change more is more resistant, more negative, right? So I love the the positivity in that uh in that communication for sure.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, yeah. And and I can't overemphasize the uh the fact that an at uh uh me as an athletic director, I in one week know everything my staff is working on. Right. There, you might have a leader of an organization that's been there 10 years and they don't know what any of their staffs are working on. I know in a week what everyone is focused in on for the year. Uh that that's it that's powerful.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Sorry about that. Yeah, it doesn't sound like um you have to do a lot of critiquing or micromanaging of the plan when you get it because you've challenged those coaches to do new stuff and it's working that what you're getting is a plan for that program for the year. And I would imagine some of those false sports are already implemented by the time you read it on August 15th.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah, definitely. And and it's not top-down management. I'm not telling people what to do, I'm inspiring people within their organization to come up with their own creativity, their own ideas to move the needle, and then bring it to me. It's the from the from from my staff up to the top. And we we talk a lot about uh uh in our in our in my leadership uh style and approach that I talk to our staff. Um, there is an org chart for the athletic department that HR requires me to submit in to High Point University, but it in an important in an importance chart, I tell my staff all the time on an importance chart, we are all on a flat line. There is no one more important or less important within high point athletic department. Everyone's importance is is equal to each other. Um, and I really try to emphasize that to our team.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Golly, that thing that that is absolute gold. There's so much in that that we may take a detour here in just a second, Josh. But one thing that you said, that idea that you can't necessarily recycle solutions is what I heard you say, right? Whatever worked here, it probably won't work here. And just like with this, the team you had last year was the team you had last year, and especially at the NCAA level right now. That is not the same team that you have now. And so whatever worked for them may not work again. And so having that targeted approach, I think, is is just critical uh to sustaining success. When now you talked about like a general goal and one that was more almost to the minute, what they were going to do in Texas, for example. You know, that's a good example, which as a coach, I would love because that tells me exactly what I have to do. I mean, and I would use the analogy that's a waffle that has little, you know, that's got little boxes in it. That's not a planted spaghetti, right? That's not like all over the place. And sometimes I think you can get that when you're trying to go too broad. If you get that, is there a back and forth on those goals? Like if if you feel like it needs a little bit more laser focus or no?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Yeah, I I'll I'll provide feedback for sure to my staff if if an annual plan needs more more details and things and certain strategic initiatives. So, what I read to you about the Texas thing, that would be an example of a strategic initiative underneath the goal of improving, you know, recruiting rankings or something. Um, and so um those specific strategic initiatives. But yeah, um, usually uh if you've been here a while, my staff gets the process. I have to work with sometimes with a new coach. I just hired a new women's basketball coach, Wyatt Faust. Um, and so he'll be doing his annual plan for the first time. A lot of times when I present that to them, they're a little intimidated, like, oh my goodness, what's this? You know, and this plan is really bullet point plan. I don't want a 20-page document. It's it's two pages, two and a half pages tops.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

That was gonna be my next question. Is that a is that a is that a template that they get? Is it a template they that you give them or they they create it?

SPEAKER_02 28:55

No, I give them, I give them a document that lays out the process and how how you would, you know, create your plan. And I tell them I want it bullet point, tell me the goal and bullet point the the four to six strategic initiatives underneath that goal that you're gonna implement this year that are new. I don't want like 20-page paragraphs and stuff. Right. And I think that that and uh you know enables their staff, the women's basketball staff, Wyatt Fowles, to zero in on their ideas and and and and you know, get those things written out. And it's very simple for everyone to follow. It's very simple for everyone to understand what you're being assigned. Um, because I want assistant coaches signed to those strategic initiatives. The head coach shouldn't have every single strategic initiative, you should be engaging your staff and having them all assign those those elements and things to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, it sounds like it has to be collaborative among the staff. Yeah, I was curious. Do you have you heard? You may not hear this, maybe one of those things that doesn't make it to your level. Does that new coach go to a high point veteran coach to say, hey, how do I do this?

SPEAKER_04 30:05

What are you really looking for? How much how am I supposed to do this?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Uh yeah, they'll they'll do some of that uh for sure. Um, we have a sports supervisors here a system. So I supervise seven sports and I'm constant I'm meeting with my head coaches every other week. Um, and then I have other sports supervisors that I'm asking them to meet with their head coaches every other week in one-on-one meetings. I want to facilitate a one-on-one meeting with my head coaches that I oversee and have my staff doing the same because um communication is a powerful thing. It doesn't need to be an hour-long meeting. We bounce things off. Sometimes it's 30 minutes, sometimes it's 40 minutes, depends upon the type of year. But I can head off a lot of things through those meetings, and I don't have a boiling pot of water over here that's overflowing where some coach has been sitting on something for two months and no one's listened to him or heard him, and then I've got big problems to try and solve. So that's another thing. So uh usually when the annual plan comes out, I I'll I'll meet with Wyatt, the new women's basketball coach, and we'll talk through things and he can ask me questions and I'll answer them.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

I I well I'll tell you what, teachers, coaches, and athletic directors are really good thieves. You I'm about to break into your inbox uh to get some of this stuff. That's really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Oh, please.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Now, Dan, when people hear about High Point University, they often talk about the facilities, the growth uh and the success. But what stands out even more is the student athlete experience. That's something that is pivotal uh to me as well. And and Josh, it seems like High Point has intentionally built something that looks different from what most colleges offer. For those who may not be familiar, what makes the High Point experience unique and why do you believe it's become such a powerful differentiator in attracting and developing student athletes?

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Yeah, I think it goes to our leadership, President Cobain, because we as an athletic department tap into many of the things that he has set up uh for all students on our campus. Um, and I think those things that are in position here on our campus um filter down to all of our athletes, and we can get into that. And that separates uh our entire university from other universities. But we we have this mantra of being the premier life skills university. President Cobain grew up um as a Lebanese immigrant coming into this country with $50 in his pocket, and he created extreme uh success in the private world. Um, and he was an HPU grad and was on our board of trustees, and we had a presidential change, and the board had talked him into being a president. He had never been a university president in his life, um, and that was God's calling to him, and he jumped into it and uh and took it on. And now he's, I think, in his 22nd year as university president, the longest standing president in the state of North Carolina for a guy who never was a president. Isn't that amazing?

SPEAKER_04 33:08

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Um, but he he his knowledge is in that private world and understanding what it's gonna take to prepare a college student for the real world in this global economy uh that's out there. And so that's where we hang our hat on the premier life skills model. Um, he does things like I've never heard before. Every single freshman that comes on our campus takes a freshman seminar class from President Cobain. President Cobain teaches a class to every single freshman that goes to HPU, including our student athletes. And in that class, he talks about the lessons he learned in his life and how he was able to be successful and why Fortune 500 companies are paying him to come talk to them and present leadership symposiums to their Fortune 500 companies. He's getting paid to do that, and our freshman student athletes and our students get to sit in an entire semester course with him as a part of the tuition and come into school here. So that's that's huge. Uh, we've also generated this innovators in residence program where we have gone out into the marketplace and gotten co-founders of Netflix and and um Wozniak, the founder of uh of Apple Computer, um Scent Marshall, who's with the Dallas Mavericks as one of their uh chief uh leaders uh and there, and we find um innovators who are specialists in their profession, and they become our innovators and residents. And those individuals come back to our campus two to three times and to interface with our students, and our students get to have one-on-one meetings with them, one-on-one engagement with these innovators and residents. And I think that separates us from other universities because we are planting the seeds of what it's going to take to be successful with a college degree. Um, a college degree is a powerful tool, but you have to have the mindset, the mentality, and um kind of that passionate pursuit to really make that degree uh come to life and work for you. And this premier life skills uh model that we have here, I think is a true separator. And going back to an experience, everything on our campus is an experience. We have three uh kind of elite restaurants or premier restaurants on our campus: a steakhouse, um uh a Japanese uh restaurant and a Mediterranean restaurant. We don't have those restaurants on our campus just just because we want to create learning laboratories for our students. And so when you go to 1924 Prime, our steakhouse, you're going to that restaurant, you have to make a reservation, you have to dress up, and you cannot have your cell phone on the entire time you're at the restaurant. Uh, and they'll call you out for that because we want our students to be engaging and talking amongst themselves. The menus change on those restaurant menus so that individuals learn different types of food, how to how to order appropriately. And our upperclassmen can take wine tasting and wine etiquette classes so they can learn once they become of age how to order a bottle of wine, how to how to take a drink from a wine. What if you're sitting in an interview and your interview person at this company says, Oh, hey, Don, Josh, you order the wine for our party table, and you're sitting in this fine restaurant on an interview, and you you can't even do that. You stumble at the at the gates. Um, so everything is intentional, everything is a learning laboratory model, and that's what separates High Point University's premier life skills and this experience-based model that uh against other universities and other student bodies.

unknown 37:05

So good.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

There's so many more. And I know that ESPN did an article during March Madness and talked about that. Yeah. Um, you know, that's that's when I really became curious about High Point University is reading that article uh on ESPN.com or ESPN app, whatever it is now. Uh, and that was really cool. Um, you know, one of the things I read that uh said President Cobain is often present in the cafeteria and other gathering places. Uh one person even said, uh, I think when they were talking to freshmen and said, You just got to be ready. He will come up and take some fries off your plate, and you just have to go with it, right? He's good. Uh, but but I bring that up to talk about the power of presence as a leader, maybe not just him, but just in general as a leader, uh, especially your presence for athletes. Um, in that, how do you create an environment where your presence uh doesn't alarm coaches and players uh of sort, you know, sometimes you show up and everybody kind of gets an attention, right? How do you make that more natural and talk about that? Talk about just the power of presence as a leader.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Uh very, very important. I mean, it just um it shows you care. I presence shows that you care. And and uh and individuals and students that are 18 to 21 and 22, they're a lot smarter than I am. They can, they can, they can know, they can read whether you care or not very quickly. Um, and so I think that presence is very, very important in showing that. And I I probably attend 130 or 40 athletic events a year, going to every single thing I possibly can, and then go into practices and making myself known. I meet with every single team, every single team in our athletic department to kick off a season because I want to welcome everyone who's new. I want them to know who I am. I I let them know where my office is and that my door is always open to them and for them. And if I can do anything during their athletic journey here to help them be successful or advance their career, walk right in. I stop every meeting for to meet with a student athlete. So I think that that that when you start your message that way, and then you're being seen at presents and and and at meetings uh uh and practices, that that just goes a long way. And and when you make yourself available to students, um another thing I think that's important is trust. You know, coaches have to trust you, they have to trust uh, you know, your support for them. Um and even when coaches are uh not successful, and I talk about this in my interview process. If I'm interviewing a new coach to come here, I tell them that winning is not on your shoulders only. Winning is we are all in the winning and losing game. It is not a one person uh reality. And um we're gonna, if you are not successful, if I hire you as a head coach and you're not successful, that is my failure as much as your failure and everyone's failure in this athletic department. Um and we're gonna we're gonna roll up our sleeves and we're gonna figure out how to write this ship, turn it around, make changes, and and we're you're gonna find a team when you're at your lowest point that will be the most active and most engaged for you, with you, behind you, than you've ever had in your life. Um, that's the message I try to share people with people. And I've proven that message. There's there are times when coaches face some extreme challenges. And when you when you prove that to them through that that model and that belief, boy, do you have a trust with a coach that that's everlasting and and never gonna end. Um, and so that that's a powerful force, I think, that's important in this in this scenario to where that when I go to a practice, I don't think you get that reaction um there because of trust presence and and and the reality that I that I'm here and we're all we're all on this team thing together.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

That's so good. Uh you mentioned that idea about that life skills, and and I think high point has often been described as life skills university. Uh and we talked about the overall student body. I want to kind of narrow that down into your student athletes at a time when college athletics is being transformed by the NML, the transfer portal, revenue sharing discussions, house settlements, hearings, the whole nine. How do you ensure that the educational and personal development mission remains at the center of the student and athlete experience? Because you said at the very beginning of our conversation that sports is going to stop for everybody at some point, and you're going to have to take on life at that point. Maybe talk about that for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah, I think it's this uh very similar to the success of our championships. We share that message to our student athletes from the beginning. Um, I I in my in my meetings, uh, when I had that meeting with everybody, I set the stage that academics is valued here and important here. And I talk about how uh we we we uh were at a 3.16 cumulative GPA for all 420 student athletes. Now we're at a 3.49. And student athletes and players listen to this. While we've had that growth, we've won more than we ever have.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

You got it.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

So uh I I communicate to them that choose excellence and being extraordinary. We we talk about choose to be extraordinary, choose to be extraordinary in everything you do, uh, in every life pursuit you have. And I think you will uh see the rewards of that. Um, and so that's the key message to athletes right from the beginning. We value it and everything. Another thing I communicate to athletes right from the beginning uh in that meeting um is everyone has faces challenges and everyone struggles. Do not struggle in silence. You have an entire team of people, our academic advisors, our tutors that are here to help you. And I and I I confide in them. There were plenty of college subjects that I that were not my cup of tea, that I did not have the proficiency in. And you will face those same challenges as a student athlete here. Do not sit and suffer for half of the semester to where we can't dig you out of that hole. Right. The moment you realize that two weeks in, whoa, I may be over my head in this, in this, you know, humanities or or uh arts class, um, because it's just so foreign to me. Immediately get to get to our academic advisors and let's get some some systems and some help to support you on that. And there's no shame in that. Uh there's no pride factor here. Um, and I think when you take Down the walls like that, and you try to explain it that way, and you have this open dialogue with student athletes, they they again get back to caring and understanding that this is a journey that we're both gonna take together, and we're gonna take this academic journey together, and we're gonna get you over that finish line as a graduate, and you're gonna have extreme challenges, but you're also gonna have extreme successes along that journey, and let's embrace it together. Um, and it's a and it's a mentality there. And then I've got a talented team that helps us, you know, execute all this, but that um the importance of that message from the get-go, um, and and hopefully a student athlete sits it sits there and realizes, you know what, he's exactly right. I shouldn't suffer in in silence. And this goes on to mental health too, because we face mental health is the exact same way. We have a mental health specialist that engages with our student athletes. Um, the moment you feel like you're facing life challenges that that are overbearing for you and perhaps uh creating depression or anxiety within you, seek that help out, seek that assistance. There's no there's no uh negative in that. In fact, it's a positive when you seek out guidance in those spaces and and and help you through those things because um uh you're getting uh I don't know this little device is a very, I think, powerful mental health um uh impactor, right? Right um that that me and perhaps you uh you guys growing up didn't have. Um and and uh you know, so we're constantly talking about how can we support and make our student athletes uh better and and and invest in them to feel better about themselves. Uh and and it's constant. As a leader, you need to know that this is 24-7 every single day, and it's not going away. If anything, it's growing. Right. You know, what you're gonna have to what you're gonna have to invest in your athletes is growing.

SPEAKER_04 46:03

I think you you bring up a really good point. Educators have always been in a role of almost a pseudo-parent, especially, especially it, you know, in our space, our kids are with our teachers and coaches more than they are their parents. And in some cases, they are filling a lot of the gaps for their parents. And to your point, it's not always about just getting guidance when you're going through something, it's just about having somebody to listen to.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

Like just let me get it out. If I feel comfortable enough to get it out, sometimes that's enough, right? But so many words are coming to mind as I'm hearing you talk about high point and about the the culture that you've built there, empowerment, trust, targeted, intentional, and then ultimately belief. Uh, and that was something that we talked about at the very beginning. When people talk about excellence in leadership, the conversation often centers around culture. And you've taken that a step further by emphasizing the importance of believing and dreaming big in today's environment where expectations for success are at an all-time high, where the cost of facilities, staffing, technology, student athlete support continue to rise. Many leaders can feel like their biggest goals are becoming less attainable. How do you maintain a mindset of dreaming big? And what advice would you give athletic leaders on turning ambitious visions into reality when resources and challenges don't always necessarily align with those aspirations? We see that a ton at the high school level, and I know that you guys feel that even at the collegiate level.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Yeah, I I am big on dreaming and believing. I I end all my uh letters to our donors and our fans is if you can dream it, you can achieve it. Um and I I just that's that's a mantra of mine that I live behind. Um so yeah, it you you have to have a vision that those those things can happen. Um, I I mentioned that we we talked about the Sasser Cup and no one knew about it. Uh, we've since transformed to, I've I've I've said, told my staff, we're gonna win a national championship in this decade. And five years ago, we put up a national championship trophy uh to start kick off our year, and we've talked about winning a national championship in this decade. And I mentioned to everyone in that room, I said, the outsiders will laugh at that. The outsiders will say, You have no prayer, no chance in winning a national championship in anything. Uh and I'm here to tell you that they're all wrong and you you can dream that and you can believe in that. And I go over Marshall winning a national championship in soccer, and I go over uh Coastal Carolina winning a national championship in baseball. And I, you know, we talk about how like how many people would have laughed at their visions and their dreams and said those things can't happen. So don't don't buy into that. Don't don't let any of that negativity ever enter your heart and and where you where you aspire to become. So I think that that's very important. The other thing I think you brought up a lot of money, and and there are there is this there is this chasm of financial investment that's happening at the power four and five level. And you know, we're not at the power four and five level currently. Uh, who knows where the future will be, but we're not there right now. Dreams, right? Yeah, right, exactly, exactly. So I'm not I'm not gonna limit myself at all. But but I try to get I don't try to get but to my staff to to understand those things have been there before. True. There they have had better facilities, they've had better national brands, they've had all kinds of advantages in the past, and we have still beaten them in in times we face them. So this is a new set of haves and have nots, but it's not new in the sense that they've they've never had advantages and we've and we've we haven't had those insane things for us at high point. So just embrace the fact that it's a new landscape, embrace the fact that uh, you know, you you'll hear things that are growing over there, but we can outsmart them, we can outwork them, we can uh we can put the collective power of our people at this organization and beat them still. Um and and our strategic initiatives and our plans are going to try and identify what we can do. Maybe we can't create 20 million dollars in Rev share for a basketball roster, but how can we beat them in the things the controllables and the strategic misses that we can beat them in? And there are a list of things that we can beat a power for school on uh that that can get an athlete to come here. And we have athletes that could easily leave High Point University and make more money and they don't in the RevShare model. Why don't they? Because we're out working power fors, we're creating relationships that that they don't believe they can get somewhere else. We're investing in them to create positive change in their lives that they believe they may not get somewhere else, and that's no amount of money is worth what the experience they're having at High Point University. Um, and that's why they stay. Um, and so when you when you do that and when you talk that and you don't you don't, I don't fear any of this. I don't fear Ohio State paying 40 million dollars more for whomever they're gonna get. I want to beat them when they spend that amount of money. And I want to beat them and prove that you can beat them spending three percent of what they're spending. Bring that challenge on to me. Let's go, let's let's make it happen. No fear of me at all through through all this. And we often get people from Power Five schools that had had, you know, maybe not had the great experience. They come here and their stock rises to the moon, and they become uh an individual like Terry Anderson, who just got invited to an NBA workout, and he came here and with his success here made that happen. He'd have probably been some lost person on a on a power four bench, but here he he for he he's chasing his dreams down by what the opportunity we gave him. So it goes both ways. I don't fear it at all.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Yeah, I'm glad you used that word one more time because that that just hit me between the eyes that leaders who fear or have fear probably have insecurity, they probably create laziness within themselves and how they operate, and you having no fear alleviates any insecurities you have about what other people are doing versus how y'all are doing it. It creates it it alleviates laziness and well, we can't get there, we can't do this or that. Um, that's a great lesson for leaders. Get rid of the fear, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Yeah, without a doubt. I learned this. I had a privilege of working with Skip Prosser five years at Wake Forest, amazing basketball coach and man. And he and he he was he was like, I uh get me in the room with the people that are talking about solutions and creating a list of solutions. I don't want to be in the room with the people that are creating the list of why we can't. Um, I want to be in the other room. And and he he was very powerful in like, you know, when he walked in the door, Duke and Carolina basketball have been dominant and uh and they they still are today. And he's like, I get that. I get that. We don't need to talk about that anymore. Get me to the list of how we're going to be better than them, out recruit them, get over them. And and you you just have to take that mentality. So many people live in the I can't world. Uh, I I that that's a world that that doesn't thrive here at HPU.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

That's good stuff. That's gold right there. That's worth the worth the whole time we spent with you today. And I the whole the whole energy has been great, but this that that is awesome. That is awesome. All right, uh, Dan, one more question if you don't mind. Uh, then we'll get into our two-minute drill. Yes. This is a little bit more personal in nature. Uh, the more we hear you talk, the more we listen to you here. Uh, we've heard you on a couple other things as we did some homework. Uh, we and we read about the experience there at HBU. My mind keeps going back to this book that I'll I'll talk about for a long time, Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Gadera. Uh, you probably have read it, being in the sales world there. Uh, what I think is y'all are providing an unreasonable college experience at HBU. So, in saying that, how have you become a better leader by being involved in such a dynamic environment?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Um, it's it's really zeroed me on on the attention of detail. Um, President Cobain is is a master of that. Every single touch point, every single thing matters. Um, and you know, so um uh I I uh do this over the summer, but I I walk every single one of our facilities and take pictures and write a list of every single thing that I see wrong in every single building here. And I charge my staff, um, facility staff to do the same thing, but then we try to fix every single thing that stands out as being broken, a scuff on the floor, or this and that. And that that perfectionist, um, extraordinary mentality is something that President Cobain ingrained in me. And another thing that was fun exercise that he had us do was he had every vice president uh do a tour. You had to do this on campus. So I was a vice president while I was over athletics. I had to go on the entire campus for a week and identify every single thing on the campus that I noticed that could be improved or could be enhanced. And I had to write up a report as a vice president of everything I saw within the entire organization outside of my bubble. Um, and that exercise was outstanding and really kind of made me think like a book. Like when you read a leadership book, it re takes you to another space within your head, being forced to do exercise like that really kind of zone you in on how uh much you can impact an organization and improve an organization every single day that you're within it. Um, and so I think that that was a very powerful thing for me um to work on and to exercise. And it's just the culture and the climate and the environment that we have here. That's just one example of it in action.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Wow. Yeah, great uh applicable ideas there for the athletic director who uh wants to have influence uh on their campus, no matter what level. Uh go go walk your uh go walk your campus and add add the input. I mean, you probably want to get permission because we can go find a lot of wrong things. Some people may not want to hear it, like President Cobain does there, but uh that's uh that's a great exercise, especially on the athletic side.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

But I I love I love hearing a complaint from a fan or a parent or anything. It's an opportunity to improve and get better. Um don't ever turn your back on that and and and and just act like you're above that input or whatever. Um you need to you need to uh you know embrace that. And I've I've done that in my career. Um, and that doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your guiding policies and procedures to give the answer that someone is a seeking, um, but you learn through that dialogue, you learn through that feedback. And um, I I there's so many times where someone brings something to my attention like, wow, you know, we do need to review this. Something's not right here. The and the the individual may not have the answer um that that we are going to land on, but they are correct in challenging us to figure out a better way, challenging us to to uh have introspection on our organization. And that's a great exercise. You have to embrace all those things.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Yeah, that's good. I I think um what you just said there about other people challenging us. Sometimes those stakeholders outside of us allow for change to happen more quickly because the people who have the resources above us who want to make sure the the place is excellent, uh, you can say, hey, people outside of us are noticing it's just not me wanting to spend the money or or you make the change or improvement or whatever. So that's that's a great.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Yeah, I mean it's this is uh impacting our overall brand. That's right. Yeah, and our brand perception. The the brand perception is very, very important. Um and it should be important to everyone within the organization.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

That's awesome.

unknown 59:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Dan, thanks a lot. You made us better today. I can't wait to go back and digest this even more. It's hard to do in the middle of it, but uh, this is gonna be a conversation that I really enjoy again. So I appreciate that. We finish every episode with a two-minute drill. Okay. We're gonna just ask you a few more questions to get to know you a little bit better. Sure, fire away.

SPEAKER_04 59:18

All right, Debbie. We'll hit you with some rapid fire questions. You just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind. What was the first job that you ever had ever in your life?

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Lifeguard at a pool. All right, what's one book every athletic leader should read?

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Uh, good to great.

SPEAKER_04 59:36

Good one. What's the most underrated leadership trait?

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Um that's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Um, positivity. Believing that positivity makes some of work less hard for you. In fact, it's the opposite. Affirmation and positivity are powerful tools.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Stop, yes. What's one thing every athletic director should stop doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Um fear, we're worrying, fear, you know, living in the world of fear. Um, live in this live in the space of opportunity and and uh and achievement and accomplishment.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:20

What movie do you wish you could watch for the first time again?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Oh, it has to be Star Wars. I mean, I was six six years old when I watched that, and just uh while technology and AI have made all that uh all those special effects look like look like garbage now or something, it at that moment it was uh uh that was I was I was in awe.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:40

That's good. Maybe you can take Josh to watch it, and y'all can watch it for the first time together.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

I knew that was coming. I saw the laugh over there. I'm not a not a sci-fi Star Wars fan, so I get I get three about that. I'll just say uh what is one place you've never visited, but it's at the top of your bucket list. I do like to travel. I'm interested in this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Yeah, I've I've never traveled internationally. I've just been a domestic guy around here. Um my wife does not uh like to fly, so it prevents, you know, kind of it keeps us uh keeps us landlocked here a little bit or whatever, which is which is fine because there's plenty to do in the U.S. But uh maybe maybe seeing uh internationally a little bit of Europe or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:23

Good deal. If a prospective student athlete had only one day on campus, what experience would you insist that they have?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:31

Wow, yeah, that's fantastic. I I tell people that are visiting this is a beautiful place and you can get mesmerized by buildings and fountains and other things, but you need to feel the caring people here. Um that's the powerful tool that that uh you're gonna leave with is the people here are the golden nugget, and so I tell them to feel them because everyone looks at this university in the rear view mirror when they graduate or leave, but the people that invest in you is what you get to take with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

I had a feeling that people answer was coming. That was good. No, you love your people and you appreciate your people. That's it's uh it's great. What is the most underrated quality of championship teams?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

It has to be uh, you know, um sacrifice and caring about the uh other team. Um understanding that um sitting on the bench by the coach's choice may be the best thing for your team, but but you're willing to sacrifice that and you care about the ultimate goal more than your own personal uh stat line and stuff. You know, it's it's that sacrifice. It takes sacrifice by 30 guys, 15 ladies, you name it, to win a title.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

Good. We've asked each one of our guests this season uh to pick a number from Brett Ledbetter's 365 questions book. So pick a number between one and 365.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

How about uh 1920 uh oh uh 365, uh uh 192.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

192. University was founded in 1924, so I'm I'm I'm going with the first three numbers.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

All right, well uh when have you blamed someone in the moment, only to realize later that it was actually your fault?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

Who wow, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:24

There's not an easy one in here, so it wouldn't have mattered what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

Yeah, when have I blamed somebody? It's probably in the University of New Mexico starting my career. I was in in marketing, um, and um, you know, working uh working maybe athletic uh game like a volleyball game and kind of blamed uh one of my uh co-workers or something um for the outcome of the the results of attendance or something within that game. Uh uh and and and understanding that while we're a team working on an objective to to you know sell 500 volleyball tickets, I was in charge of volleyball as the director of marketing for that sport, and I shouldn't put the blame on them. I should do it myself because as the director of that, if I have a team if I have team members that are not working um to the success level I need them to work at, that's on me to get them there. I have to either inspire them, I have to either um lead them in a manner and a fashion that they'll work harder for me uh and not just get into the blame game. So that that would probably be uh my first example of that, and um attempting not to do that again.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:38

Good answer.

unknown 1:04:39

Great.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

Okay, let's finish with this one. It's our trademark question today. Dan, how's you been hanging with the ADs? Let's say you can hang out with anyone, who would that be and why?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

Um it'd probably be my mom. She passed away from from with cancer as I was growing up, and uh, you know, everyone faces life challenges or whatever, but if I could have another day to hang out with her and and uh catch her wisdom, uh I'd love to see her reaction to where I was when she passed away, which has been a lot of decades ago, to where I am now, and and just get her to pick me apart and and uh hopefully there's a couple things along that journey that she she'd be smiling ear to ear about. That that'd probably be who I'd want to spend the day with.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:28

That's good stuff. I got a feeling she's got she's had a front row seat to all of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

Uh yeah, I know she has. I I hope I hope I've again later let made her smile and laugh a couple times along the way, and then she's probably kicked kick kicked the ground a little bit when I when I've done done something something stupid that we all end up doing sometimes. But uh outweighs more than the other.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:48

That's that little that's that little stitch in your shoulder or your back that you get when you turn around. You think it, you know, you're just old, but it's I think it's something else. Dan, we find great value in learning from our counterparts uh at the next level, seeing how you guys do what you do and then how we can replicate it. This has been an absolute home run of a conversation. High Point is better because you are there. We appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

Well, thank you, Don. Appreciate it, Josh. Thanks for your time. Great to visit with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

What an incredible conversation with Executive Director of Athletics at High Point University, Mr. Dan Hauser. We appreciate Dan joining us today and teaching us why things are going so great at High Point University. A university you probably uh may have never heard of until this recent March Madness in 2026 or some other successful program they have. It's a small institution, but it is an institution filled with extraordinary leadership, and you experience that today. You know, what I love Dan sharing with us was how leadership is all about his people, the people there, and how he allows them to lead in their own capacity, which builds capacity among the staffs, but it also shows a high level of organization and leadership that he implements from his seat as the director of athletics there. So, Dan, thanks for joining us. We hope you got a lot out of today's episode. I know we did, and we can't live wait to listen uh again. Uh uh as always, we thank you for being with us. We would love to get a rating or review uh on the platform you're listening from. And once again, thank you for spending your time hanging with the AD.