SPEAKER_00 0:04

You're listening to the Hanging with the AD Podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and lessons learned through leadership. Now, here are your hosts, Josh Matthews and Don Baker.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Welcome back to another episode of the Hanging with the AD Podcast. Today's conversation is one we've been looking forward to for quite some time. Joining us is Nathan Whitaker, a New York Times best-selling author, keynote speaker, and Super Bowl champion. Many of you know his work alongside legendary NFL coach Tony Dungey, where together they've shared powerful lessons on leadership, faith, and what it truly means to live and lead with purpose. Nathan has had a front row seat to some of the most respected leaders in professional sports, learning from and writing about individuals who don't just chase success, but define it differently. Leaders who are in every sense of the word uncommon. We've had the opportunity to connect most recently with Nathan through the NIAA's AD roundtable and as well as the NADC in Tampa, where his message on leadership, alignment, and intentional connection left a lasting impression on athletic leaders from across the country. In this episode, we dive into what it really means to pursue uncommon success, how great leaders build alignment within their teams, and why something as simple yet often overlooked as making genuine connections can transform your leadership impact. We also explore the importance of guarding your mindset, developing future leaders, and finding your own authentic leadership voice rather than trying to replicate someone else's. So whether you're leading a program, a department, or simply looking to grow in your influence, this is a conversation that will challenge and inspire you. Let's settle in and get to know Nathan Whitaker.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Nathan, we're so glad to have you joining Don and me for this episode of Hanging with the AD. We've had the pleasure of connecting on the AD Roundtable and at the National AD Conference. So it's great having you on the podcast now.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Well, great. I just really appreciate y'all having me.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Well, for our listeners, if you don't know Nathan Whitaker, you need to uh you need to add his books to your collection. He is a New York Times best-selling author a few times, I think, keynote speaker, and a Super Bowl winner. Uh several of his books were written with former, look, there it is, Super Bowl Ring. If you're not on YouTube, you need to uh get on there and see it. That's that's impressive. Um, but several of his books were written with former NFL coach Tony Dungey, who I believe you won the Super Bowl with there. Uh what a great moment that was. Uh, he's had the privilege of learning leadership from some of the best coaches in NFL history, and I think you'll get a taste of that today. Uh finally, we do uh want to say, as we mentioned, we recently had the privilege of hearing you at the National ED conference in Tampa in December of 25, 2025, depending on when you're listening to this episode. But we'll stop right there and let Nathan tell us a little bit more about himself. Nathan, I know you're in the football world or we're in the football world. We like to call it the back of the baseball card bio. So what would Nathan Whitaker's baseball card look like on the back? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Well, um yeah, the the back of the book bio um would be along the lines over the back of the baseball card. Let me just first open by saying Tony won his Super Bowl with the Colts, and I was not there for that. This Super Bowl was with John Gruden the year after Tony. Oh, that's right. Yep, that's right. So, and we can debate all we want about whose Super Bowl it was in Tampa. But anyway, Coach Gruden was there with us, and uh and he made all the right calls in the playoffs, and and it was just a really fun time.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Um, but I grew up where I now live. I I'm in Gainesville, Florida, and grew up here sixth generation Floridian, and went off to college and law school, uh, played football and baseball at Duke, was recruited to play baseball, walked on the football team, so played for Coach Spurrier, and quickly learned that I was out of my depth in the uh world of uh of college athletics, played a little bit, but not much. Um, and then ended up going to law school, practicing law, um, and then joined the Jacksonville Jaguars. Was with the Jaguars for three years, was with the Buccaneers for three years. And then um after I had gotten an offer to join the Chicago Bears, and the Bucks said, no, we're not gonna let you go, that we've got big plans for you. And then the next year they fired me along with the rest of the front office. So I hatched an idea to write a book about Tony Dungey. Tony said that nobody wants to read about him and that he wasn't sure he had anything to share anyway. And we both know, of course, um that that's not the case. So it took me three years to talk him into it, and that became his memoir when he finally agreed to do it, uh, Quiet Strength. And that book hit number one on the New York Times list and launched me into being able to do other books with Tony and then other books with other people. So I've been doing that now for the last 19 years, uh, writing and then speaking. And so that's now how I'm fully occupied. It's been a uh a fun road and one that I could not have predicted.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

Yeah, it sounds uh sounds like a great ride there. And uh, if you get Nathan or you look Nathan up, you're gonna see that he's connected um through books with several other uh very celebrity uh kind of folks. And I imagine that's uh pretty fun to uh put their life story and put their memoirs out there as well. So that's cool. But uh Nathan, you wrote one of the most memorable lines to me uh that I've ever read in the book Uncommon when you talked about Tony Dungey's coach, Coach Cal Stoll. And the quote was Success is uncommon, therefore not to be enjoyed by the common man. I'm looking for the uncommon people. Uh that's what coaches, uh Coach's coach said about him, right? Uh what did you think when you first heard this quote and wrote about it?

SPEAKER_01 6:04

You know, it it was one of those where every now and then I joke about it and I think about the fact that, you know, we all want to be above average, but by definition, I mean, we all can't. Um, but that there are ways in which I'm gifted in ways that you and Don aren't, and the reverse is true. And so the fact that if we if we want to be uncommon um and kind of make the most of our abilities, and then it takes sometimes um not necessarily doing uh the the great, the big, the grand gestures, but actually being consistent with kind of the little things that a lot of times people aren't willing to do. And that can be uncommon. Um doing the right thing when when people aren't looking or whatever it may be. And a lot of times nobody notices. But then, you know, the tenth time you think, okay, this actually doesn't help me, but let me correct this, whatever it may be. And this may end up somebody notices, and it opens a whole nother door that you didn't, because you were uncommon and doing little things that other people don't appreciate. Um, whatever it may be. And so that did resonate with me, this idea that if I do want to want to be um not average in at least something, then I need to be willing to figure out what it is that I can do consistently over and over to help make myself that way.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Golly, you are speaking like right to me. That is my whole, that's what I've told my kids, that's what I've told anybody that will listen. This idea of I get a lot of times like, how do I how to become an athletic director? How do I become how do I do what you do? And my answer is always the same. It's work. You just work because most people don't want to, right? Like just put, just put in and then find the find the job that nobody wants to do. Do it, crush it. Someone will see that, give you something else, rinse and repeat, continue to do that. And it's not that that's gonna happen overnight, right? But it's but if you continue to do that, that is what makes you uncommon. I'm I'm just glad that someone else outside of the four walls of my house said it, and so I'm gonna make sure my kids hear it from someone else because that'll that means they'll listen to it. So that's good. Um now, President Eisenhower believed that the one quality that can be developed by studious reflection and practice is the leadership of men. The stereotypical leader is one who is set apart from ordinary people. Talk about how this applies to the leaders you've come across and and possibly written about what made them unusual, or to use one of your titles, uncommon.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Let me come at this from a slightly different perspective, but then I'll I'll follow back up with that. Sure. One of the things that happened when Tony won the won the uh Super Bowl and finally agreed to do his memoir, is that he said, you know what I really appreciate about winning the Super Bowl is that I've always told my players, I've always told my staff, the fact that we won the last game of the year is not what's going to mark our careers and make us successful or not. The fact that I won one game, that's great, I'm happy, but that's not how you measure a life or a career or whatever it is. He said, But having done that and knowing that so often people look at that, he said, I think it validates the fact that you can be quiet and you can be introspective and you can be deliberate in how you speak to people and be successful. Or you can be boisterous, extroverted, energetic, whatever it may be, if that's how you're wired. And there may be times in which we need to draw on certain things that we don't do as well and adopt some adopt and adapt um to that. But Tony said, I just I'm just glad it validates um somebody who does things a little bit differently. And so if you're not wired like Tony, don't become Tony. But if you're kind of wired that way, don't become Nick Saban or John Calapari or whatever it is, um, because that's not necessarily who you need to be. And so I think that understanding was one that um the wisdom of Tony certainly set him apart as a leader, but it was that sense of I can be uncommon in the areas I'm already gifted in, and I don't have to become somebody else to do it. Um, you know, one of the things that I really appreciated about working for Tom Coughlin, to use a different example, football coach for the uh Jaguars when I was there, and later the Giants, and and Coach Coughlin was talk about studying leaders and Eisenhower and the like. He had a picture of Eisenhower in his office and he had pictures of Patton and he had Patton's book, and and he was always studying leadership. And one of the things I appreciated about him is that he was it was a tough environment as far as the hours we worked and what was expected. And and so that was that was a challenge at times. But he was always so clear as far as here's what we're trying to do. And if you have a better way of doing that, then come to me and share it and say, okay, we're how about if we do this? And he was just very transparent as far as here's our goal, here's the way I think we should get there. But if somebody else has another idea, um, feel free to share it. And I think that's one of the things that sets uh for me a lot of great leaders apart. Um, I was just with Dave Roberts in uh in Arizona at their spring training, and I'm going back. Um, and that's gonna date this podcast. But yes, here we are in March and um during spring training. But one of the things I saw from Dave was that he was always open to if somebody had an idea, if a player had an idea about the lineup, if a front office person had an idea about the roster or somebody had an idea about pregame meals or however it was, he was open to any of that. And so I think for a lot for me, part of what I've taken is a lot of the leaders who have set themselves apart are willing to listen and they're willing to learn. And they realize that every interaction is one where they can learn something. And so, you know, even though the two-time defending champ, uh Dodgers, Dave is like, hey, if there's some way we can get better and let's do it and let's figure out what that is.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

Yeah, that's really good. Uh listening and learning, I think you sum all that up in the humility, right? That's what I was hearing you say. Are the the great leaders that you come across are humble in their the way they operate. They know they don't know it all, they know somebody else may know more, and they're not afraid to uh to to listen and to hear those those ideas. It's a great lesson right there for us to learn for sure. So absolutely yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

And and just if I can follow up on that just for a second, one of the things I thought all along, and and I've had really terrific opportunities to to go to Duke, to get into Duke, and then go to Harvard Law School and to do other things. And so for a long time, when I was trying to be humble because I always thought it was important, this idea of humility, I would belittle what I'd done, or you know, hey, I was right place, right time, or hey, I'm just the lucky guy who, you know, people thought I was a better athlete than I was. And and then I realized that this false modesty isn't really the kind of humility that helps us as a leader, that I don't have to tear myself down, but I need to be humble enough to realize that whoever I'm talking to at this moment has something to share with me. And they understand some things in some area that I haven't reached yet. And so I can learn in every interaction I have. And so to me, that's the beauty of humility that you were touching on this idea that I can always be learning. And it doesn't have to be this false bringing myself back down to the group, if you will, or belittling what I've done or not acknowledging that. But rather this idea that everybody out there is really special and unique in some way. And I need to just kind of be open enough to hear that.

SPEAKER_04 14:05

Yeah, I'm glad you you shared that. I think that's something I struggle with. I I want to be humble, right? We all kind of want to be humble, uh, but part of that is trying to deflect uh the the personal attention. And uh you you said it a lot better. It's it's more of not necessarily deflecting it, but going and finding what that person in front of you has to offer and making them feel valuable. So that's great. That's uh I'm glad you shared that because it helps me if it didn't help anybody else. So um sorry if it didn't help anybody, but uh all right. Uh let's speak about connections. Um, you recently wrote a weekly email about making connections. Uh, this is something that's become a passion of mine lately. Um, it's hard for me to find more joy lately in my life than taking two um two people I know or two connections I have and connecting them with one another for the first time and uh creating value amongst them and kind of stepping out of it and letting them now have that connection that I had, right? Or those connections. You mentioned taking time at speaking engagements to meet with people. So many times the speakers in and out, or uh even at like church, the preacher may come from a green room because they're they're on a time schedule or whatever, but they miss opportunities to connect. Talk to leaders about the impact, taking extra time to get out of the office or get out of the green room or whatever it is and meet the people in your circle and maybe expand that to connecting with new people at functions that take a person out of their ordinary circles. You're gonna you're gonna be at a function, you're gonna be at a conference or something, and instead of standing and talking to the people you know, go meet someone new. You know, I recently heard our pastor talk about how sometimes he'll dread events and dread going, oh man, I got to go to this thing, I gotta go to that thing. But then when he gets there, he really enjoys the people. Uh, do you find the same true for you, being being the same for you? And talk to us about making connections a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Sure. There's so much, um, it's a great question, so much wrapped up in that. You know, if left to my own devices as skewing a little bit more on the introverted side of things, I'd be happy to go to conferences, convention speaking events, whatever, and eating a pizza on my lap in the hotel room, you know, sitting on the bed watching whatever games I can find um on TV. But I I then will either have, you know, some sort of dinner with the leaders or just force myself to get up and walk out. And I do really enjoy those connections. And so much of life comes from those connections. And I've seen that over and over. Um, you know, Harvey McKay wrote a book years ago. He was um he was a Minnesota businessman, and I cannot remember the company he had, but he wrote several books on networking. And one of the things that really resonated with me was that he wasn't networking to network or to add to his Rolodex, he was networking to make friends. And and he would talk about his um his 230 or his two o'clock in the morning list or something like that. Like when you ran into a crisis in life, when you got to call at two in the morning that you don't want to get, who can you call to lean on? And he said, So if I ever, if my whole point in networking and connecting is transactional, that I just want to meet you because you're the AD of another school system and I just think someday I might want to work there. So let me make sure I connect with you so that someday I've I can lean on that. He's like, No, the better way is to actually build a relationship. And then someday you may need them or they may need you or whatever, but it's much more authentic. And if you never do, at least you've got another friend at wherever that may be. So I have learned to um to suck it up and to get out and do that. And you know, one of the silly things that um um I I've done a bit in my life is to try to force myself with systems and ways to to get out of of my um my comfort zone. So there are there are events I've gone to, um, and sometimes it's easy as the speaker, right? Because people are already looking for you and they've seen your name on whatever the promotional materials that are, and so that so they'll recognize you. But other times where I think, you know, I would like to meet people at this, and I know I'm not gonna maybe, it's not in my nature. I've started traveling with uh titules because everybody seems to like a titsi roll pop, not titular, titular pops. Um and so then I find myself like walking around with four or five and going, Hey, do you want one? And then all of a sudden you're like the titular guy, and it makes you stop. And then they say and they're like, hey, um, it sounds silly, but I've found that you know, if I travel with 30 and I return home with 29, uh, then I really didn't do anything. But if I travel with 30 and I come home with none, then that makes me feel better. That okay, yes, I did force myself to get out a little bit, meet some people, and find out the other people that need to see their dentist, like I do.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

That that that truly is a win-win for everybody. You get a Tootsie Roll pop and you get to make connections, which you challenge yourself to do. That that's that's a really great idea.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah, that's good. And and Nathan, to kind of piggyback on that, I'm naturally I'm like that too. I'm I'm naturally uh an introvert by nature. And through the NIAA and getting to know other people and kind of leaning into those environments, it it's helped me tremendously. We we had a uh an opening for a job here in in my district and got an application that looked to be a really good application from a state that is 1,500 miles away from here. And uh the AD at the school was like, you know, I wonder if I if I only knew anybody out there, and I was immediately I was able to go, you know what? I know somebody that probably this this is a school in their district. I guarantee you they know who this is. And I was able to pick the phone up, call it. We were able to get information that you know determine what our next steps were going to be, but it happened only because, to your point, only because I was able to kind of take my nature, kind of suppress it a little bit, get a little uncomfortable, and then create connections with people that I probably I probably wouldn't have otherwise. Um and so uh you're you're dead on there. Now you've served in a Super Bowl winning organization, you've written about winning coaches. Uh, talk about where alignment ranks in importance to organizations that excel. Uh, maybe describe, I don't know if you I don't know if you can, but maybe describe that visual of the rowboat that you used at the AD conference. Maybe talk about alignment for a minute, the importance of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Sure. So um, yeah, if I'd have been uh I'd been thinking about that, I could share my screen or flash it or something. But um, but I think alignment's critical because a lot of times what we're looking for is our we want our organization to be better than the parts, right? We want the sum of the parts to be better. And so we want my strengths to supplement your weaknesses or whatever it may be. And to the extent we don't have alignment, then you know, how do I get you to how do I get you to show up when you don't feel like showing up? Or how do I get you to to get out of your comfort zone and go meet somebody and whatever? Because it's gonna pay off for us in six months or three years or maybe never. But but the more we do these things that stretch us, that I think give us a better chance to really succeeding in whatever our endeavor is. But if we're not aligned and if we're in a place where you're only doing it because, you know, Nathan's the district head and he's telling me to go, then you're gonna start cutting corners, looking for ways, or whatever, because you get tired of me telling you what to do. Until we have, I think, alignment. And alignment allows us to all say, okay, Nathan's doing this or Nathan's asking this of me, because we're all headed in this direction. Whatever it whatever your organizational purpose may be, your mission, whatever it is, to the extent we're aligned, that makes it a lot easier. And so if you're, you know, missing other things that you might want to do, or you know, like the pastor saying, I can't believe I have to go to this event again, and he'd rather be, or she would rather be, whatever it may be, doing something else. Um, I think the fact that we have alignment helps us check that and say, okay, yes, let me make sure I have balance, but also there are times when I'm going to buy into the organization. So the robot idea, right? Robots headed toward whatever our purpose is, and the goal is that we're all rowing together in that way. And so, as I saw with my daughter who rode crew, it didn't take a whole lot for somebody to be off task or to pull us in the wrong direction. And so it could certainly be the person who's just completely out of sync, they're in the wrong organization, they really don't care about whatever it is, right? They they've become an AD because they love sports, but they really don't like to be around kids or whatever it may be, right? There's something where there's this fundamental disconnect. And the beauty is that they will see it, we will see it, the kids will see it, whatever, in short order, right? And so that's going to work itself out eventually. The harder thing is when we've got a lot of alignment, but not necessarily all. And at times that that may be okay, but there are times in which it may be in a fundamental way where we realize that somebody's either stirring up trouble with things going on or whatever, or they've got their eye on something. And so all of a sudden it's not about where we're all headed together, it's about where they're headed, and and so they're kind of uh lurking isn't the right word, but they're not as fundamentally off or out of alignment, but it still can be detrimental. So I do think it's so critical back to Joshua's point earlier about connecting, about continuing to talk, continuing to make sure we're all on the same page and make sure we've got that alignment. And so whether it's an open door, whatever it may be, um to make sure that we're continuing to chat and to connect and to make sure we're all heading in the right direction. Um, I think it's just really important. And part of that may be understanding where are you headed? Where do you want to go as part of this team? And are your goals ones that make sense with us? Can I help you get there? Or is it something we got to figure out because there's something more fundamental going on?

SPEAKER_03 24:24

So let me ask you this kind of to piggyback on that. When obviously you want everybody everybody to be aligned, you want everybody to be moving in that same direction. What would you say to that leader who has people that are pushing back that idea of we can agree to disagree, right? But right now, I need you with me. Does that make sense? Like how how how does a leader navigate that person who is trying to, you know that they're good, you know that they're talented. For whatever reason, they're kind of pulling when you're pushing, getting them to understand we can agree to disagree right now, but right now I need you to move with me, hoping that you get to the other side, they see that that light at the end of the tunnel is not a train, and then we find success.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Well, I think there are just some times in which one, I think it's critical to listen, right? Critical to listen in a way that makes them feel heard and valued. And then at the end of the day, you may say, Great, I love all those points that make so much sense. We're not gonna do that because we've got to do something else, or whatever it may be. But I hear you, and I'm gonna file that away and we can revisit that because maybe that makes sense at some point. And then once we get across the river, do whatever, you know, figure out okay, how do I help them see the light? Or am I the one who maybe needs to revisit? And is what they're saying, maybe, okay, we got there. Look, I needed you short term to buy in. Okay, we've gotten there. Hmm. Should we approach this a different way?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Um, yeah, and some people you're you're never gonna get them, right? Some people they're just gonna be for delivered reason. And and it doesn't mean they're bad and it doesn't mean you're bad, and whatever. They just may not ever get on board. And so that's where, you know, at times um moving on is is a blessing. Uh, you know, I got fired by the Bucks and I was not distraught um because things have been going south for a while, and and they fired me, and and I had this sense of, okay, this is probably okay. And the more I got past it and looked back, I thought, yeah, that can be really freeing for people to re once they realized that, you know, I came here with Tony Dungey and I came here because things were moving in this direction, now they're moving a different direction. And and you know, I was just telling my wife earlier, reminding her of how I didn't have the guts to quit. I had a contract, I had uh, and I knew that probably the time had come. And and for me, it was them saying, okay, we're not in alignment here. We want to go here, we want you to buy into what we're doing, and me going, I don't know that I can. And and that's okay. So I but I do think it's critical to listen. A lot of people don't listen. A lot of people only speak to make sure they're understood or they're heard. Yeah, and a lot of times our conversation, we have to flip it and make sure that we're we're having a conversation to make sure they're heard.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Yeah, that's good. I I I tell people all the time, listen for truth. Like it, you know, it I know that's tough, but just because somebody's upset or just because somebody's saying something that is, you know, maybe against the direction that you want to go, listen for truth. Just just listen for truth, see if there's anything there, reflect, and then obviously, if that's not the case, then keep it moving. But I think that there's a lot of value in listening for truth uh sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

I like that.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

I'm taking I'm taking that idea. So there you go. All right, yeah, Nathan. I want to expand on that a little bit. Just that question. I think we can go a different route as well. Don, when that when we talk about that rowboat and the the alignment, um, I think Don kind of talked about the person who's sitting sideways. And when you showed that visual in Tampa, there were a couple of those arrows that were way out of alignment. Those are easy to see, and like you said, you got to address it, you got to figure it out. Uh, I want I want you to talk to the leader who has to address the small things. Don says all the time, there are no little things. But maybe that that person who's rowing the boat who looks, and you kind of you kind of started going there, who looks like they're doing everything right. They look to be in sync, but maybe their right foot is not in the right spot. And it's causing that boat to go just a tick slower than the than what it could go. You know, you talk about Super Bowl, those two teams are great. There's always one little small moment that makes a difference, one small fundamental that makes a difference. And if those small fundamentals are not addressed by the leader throughout the journey, then it it shows up when it's important, right? Talk to the leader who needs to address small fundamentals that are causing his or her organization not to be in full alignment and not up to full potential.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah. I think it's really important that we're just kind of um that we're always alert, that we're always listening, and that as Don said, we're listening for truth. Um, you know, and so I'll just make an example that I actually see in in business a lot, and we see it in um in sports, but but the the coach, the leader, the whatever who yells, barks, whatever. And and that just is a part of some people's personality. But I also worked with um somebody in one of their division heads would just almost mock errors and and something would happen, and they're like, you know, this is no way and blow up. And and so having conversations with the division head and and saying, look, that's not how we want our organization to be, right? We want it to be a safe place where people can come with ideas, where people can make mistakes, as long as they are mistakes of commission, of effort, of whatever, you know, we're gonna go out and do, and not that they're slacking and not doing what they're supposed to do, but you know, all right, great, I can fix that, right? If you're trying and you're working and you're whatever and you make mistakes, let's let's keep bringing it on board. But we want to be a place that's safe. We want to be a place where employees can learn and grow, whatever it may be. And trying to deal with that division head. And the division head kept saying, I'm hitting all my sales numbers, I'm hitting all my stuff, right? Picture the coach who's like, look, I'm winning. Yes, occasionally I blow up at the kids, but I'm winning and whatever. And and the fact that I, you know, fly off the handle and whatever. And but to come back to, look, that's one of our core values that we're gonna treat people with respect, whatever it may be, right? I'm kind of making this up, but but to be key to keep coming back and have somebody else say, Well, that's just a small thing that doesn't matter. Well, it's actually part of our core values, and so it's not a small thing. It may feel like a small thing for you, and I love that you're winning, or whatever it may be, and I love that you're hitting your sales numbers, but that's not how we're gonna treat others. And so figuring out over time what it is that we're gonna do and how we're gonna deal with that. Um, but I think it's important that we continue to address it, that we continue to listen, that if we get feedback from parents or, you know, in this company, the the uh the subordinates of the division head weren't dying to come and say, you know, I feel I feel unempowered after going into these meetings. And and even in talking to the division head, the division head was saying, you know, it's funny when people yell at me like this, I shut down and I don't hear what they have to say. And you're like, oh, okay, help me understand why that well, I because I have to yell so they know it's important. Well, is there some other way we can get that across? And it may take a while and it may, but I think it, you know, back to the Don's point about there being no little things. I mean, at some point, if we decide this is a core value, right? And we decide, okay, every time my school leaves an event, we will have swept the dugout or whatever it may be. And you have a coach who's like, look, we're winning, we've won the conference four years in a row, we're not sweeping the dugout. That's just not a who cares? You have to decide is that a little thing? Is that a core value? Is that something we're actually concerned about? And if we're concerned about the whole athlete development and the growth and whatever, then maybe we should. Um anyway, I think that's a long answer to it's hard. It's hard sometimes when somebody has this disconnect of this is a small thing, it doesn't matter. Um, but continuing to come back and say, no, we need your arrow is slightly, you know, is it you're not quite going with us, right? You're kind of, and you're gonna pull our boat off. If every coach, if every person's like, you know what? Yeah, you're right. I can yell at the kids every now and then, or I can tell the parents I don't want their input or whatever it may be, and in a rude fashion, or however, however it may manifest itself, right? Once you, once you allow the behavior, right, once you permit something, then it seeps into your culture, right? Whether you're trying to let it do that or not.

unknown 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

I think it's a great answer because I think the biggest thing you said there is the core values. If that person doesn't have their foot in the right spot on the boat and I correct and correct and correct, I'm I'm nitpicky over the little stuff. But if we have a core value that says we're gonna have good posture in every training session, or we're going to uh be fundamentally sound, or whatever that core value is, you you can take that correction that is very nitpicky or very small and connect it to our core value. And it's like this is who we are. I'm not doing anything that you didn't understand when you became a part of this organization. So I I think that core value is a huge component for leaders to add to their uh to their their organization if they don't have them already. And if they do, use those for uh for your leadership, not just for correction, but for recognition as well. So that's great. So yeah, Nathan in Tampa, you talked about and this hit home to me, beware of voices. And uh it was impactful for me because I often have conversations with people in my head that are not pleasant or even worse. Maybe some of that yelling and screaming, and it's all up in my head, and they never happen in real life. Maybe it's me. I don't know. Maybe this is something leaders who deal with a lot of people suffer from. Once again, it may just be me. So this may be a me, me question. I don't know. Hopefully, somebody else out there is like me. Um, talk about what you meant about beware of voices.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, so I think um a couple of aspects to that. One is is I do the same thing. I will have entire conversations, hard conversations with people.

SPEAKER_04 34:27

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

And most of them never happen, but my pulse is elevated, and I'm now in not as good a mood as I was before I went down the path of, and often they don't happen. Or often you have the first sentence of what you think is gonna be a hard conversation, the other person says, you know what? I was so wrong. I was so out of line. I was, and you have all these responses ready, and you're like, Oh, this is gonna go away quickly. Um, you know, I've got a I've got a shirt that uh my daughters gave me for my birthday of a Tom Petty line, being a Gainesville guy, I'm I think I'm obligated to like Tom Petty. But it says, Most things I worry about never happen anyway. And so there is that voice that causes me to think of things that are either not gonna happen or aren't gonna be that big a deal when they come. Um at times it's nice to be prepared for those and having thought through it, but not to the extent I do. The other voice that's this link to that is this a voice that tells me, um, I'm not enough, or I made this mistake again and I'm sure I'll do it again, or whatever it may be. That negative voice that will speak to me in a way that no matter how irritating, Josh, you may get, I will not speak to you in that tone, right? If we're in the same building every day and you were always under my skin, I still would not be as harsh and as biting with you as I will be with myself for what I perceive to be shortcomings or whatever it may be. And so that's the other voice that I think is really um one is this thought of like looking for problems and worrying about things that aren't gonna happen, or maybe but and I say that as a somebody who usually sees the bright side, and usually something will happen, and I'm like, okay, all right, here's how we can bounce back. I'll need to dwell, you know, I'll be in a funk for a little bit, and I start to look for ways to, but I still can go through that what's gonna go wrong here. But then the second one is that voice that tears myself down, and having to learn with uh having to learn how to deal with that voice and understand that that's not a voice I need to spend any time with. Um that it's it's I can hear it, but then I don't have to keep going in the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

That idea of soundtracks, listening to yourself and and the the power that it has over uh over a lot of us. Now let's I want to ask a couple questions about building leaders. You wrote about Tony Dungey hiring Mike Tomlin, and Coach Tomlin just retired, so there's a lot that's been mentioned about his leadership success, but he didn't start with the most polished resume, as you stated. So many leaders, coaches, they want to hire that coach who has done it all, right? They want to have a you know a home run of a hire. But why was Coach Dungy hiring an unproven coach like Mike Tomlin so counter-culture yet an act of superior leadership?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah. So I think you know, the the other piece of that backstory for um people who don't know it is it was 2001, and Herm Edwards had just left to take the New York Jets head coaching job. And that was the empty slot, and Tony hired Mike Tomlin. And as you say, Mike was a defensive backs coach at the University of Cincinnati. And so young, unproven. But one of the core values that Tony thought was important was teaching. And he wanted coaches who were teachers. And so he talked to Mike and he he uh realized that Mike was really not much of a yeller, but was more of a teacher. And it would have been okay if he had been more of a yeller in in some ways, in that Herm was, right? Herm had been around and done everything and seen everything. And and so Tony didn't necessarily have a preconceived notion as who had to be in that slot, but he looked and he thought, okay, Mike is um a great teacher, and I'm gonna take a chance on this unproven defensive backs coach. Now, countering that, or or counterbalancing that maybe, he had Jim Colbull on staff and he had just hired Jim. And Jim had been the head coach of Wake Forest, and Jim's now the quarterback's coach. And so he had this seasoned voice. And of course, what's interesting to think that he traded Herm for Jim in some ways is that Jim, you'd never know what his. I mean, Jim makes Tony look really excitable. Um, you could never see what and Jim was very deliberate and thoughtful about everything he did. Um, but again, this idea of yes, it might be great to have the home run hire who's done it all, seen it all. But then there are also times when I have to figure out all right, what are my core values? Well, one of my core values here is teaching. And is that gonna be as important as, you know, how do I value that as compared to experience and somebody who's seen it all and done it all? And well, maybe it's not as important. The right person I've got here is one that we'll all figure it out together. We'll bring them on board, but we'll get kind of the Jim Collins good-to-great concept of we're gonna get the right people on the bus and then we'll figure out their roles, right? And we're gonna make sure that Mike has proved himself to be the right person, but we'll get the right person here and then we'll we'll let them grow and figure it out as they go.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Really good. Now, many of us have had influential leaders that we've played for or worked alongside, we've people that we admire that we want to learn from and have learned from. But as we grow in leadership, there's that fine line between learning from great leaders and simply trying to mimic them. You mentioned that earlier, that idea about being something that you're not. How do you strike that balance and what safeguards help leaders develop their own authentic leadership voice rather than trying to be someone else? Because that can be a dangerous step if a leader tries to do that. And because eventually they're gonna get called on it. And here's the deal we deal with teenagers, we people don't give them the as enough credit, in my opinion. They can spot a fake a mile away, right? So maybe speak to that idea about finding authentic, your authentic leadership voice, even though you've had other experiences that have helped get you there.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah. I I think part of it probably is to is to step back and think, all right, what are the things, what are the things I want to accomplish? And what are the qualities of these mentors I've had, these leaders I've seen, people I've watched on TV, whatever it may be, what are the things that I think would be helpful and why? So there are times with, you know, I've I've seen coaches lead regular team meetings and I've sat back and thought, wow, the way they put this together, the way they bring home the point, the way they do this, I wish I could do that. And then I have to stop and think, okay, what's really the what's really the core tenant here? Is it really that they're a great order, or is it that they're getting across the point they want to get across? And so if I'm not as polished and whatever it may be, as long as I'm getting things across clearly, and so do I need to figure out, hey, do I need to send texts regularly just so people understand here's where we're trying to head, or do I need to? But to to some extent, I think that at times we fall in love with the concept of something and we so we do try to mimic the behavior when what we want to dig down to is this underlying idea, right? I I watch speakers and there are times when I see speakers on stage and I'm like, oh my gosh, the way they do that and the way they get, you know, like the call and answer, right? They'll say something in the crowd will say, and and then I realized, you know what, that's not that's not how I'm wired, right? And so I'm not gonna get um that same. And if I try to do that, then like you said about the kids, right? They're gonna sit there, the audience is gonna go, oh my gosh, this guy's thinks we're all gonna start, you know, weeping and falling on the floor and whatever in pure emotion when my approach, I think, may be a little more cerebral, that I'll lay it out logically for you and help you get there. Maybe I'll throw in some stories to drive it home. Um, but I think that's true with leaders as well, is figuring out what is it I want to do. And so if I find myself mimicking somebody, um, then how is it that I then what am I actually trying to do there with the mimicry?

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Yeah, I think you you bring up a good point when you say, like, what is my version of that? Right? You look at something and you go, man, that he really crushed it in that, or that was a really good way to say that or be okay. So now what is my version of that? And I think by learn you still learn from them, right? You're still taking tools from them, but you're kind of molding it into what fits for you. And I think that that's that's a I think that's a great concept. I think it's it's very doable. What what is what is my version of that? Makes less sense.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

And at times, maybe can I improve my version? Sure. Or is it just not authentic to me? So I just need to stay kind of understand. But but there's always this idea of can I be learning, can I be growing?

SPEAKER_04 43:05

Um Yeah, the speaking thing hits home right there for me because I want to be the guy that can stand on the stage with no notes and uh and have my stuff prepared, but not memorized and be fluid and be have charisma and be really sharp, right? But I've I've what I've I've noticed others that I have a lot of respect for, they take notes up there and they they cheat off their notes if you want to call it the word cheat. So I've learned, hey, you know what? Why not take some notes up there and be comfortable? And it's not gonna take away from your message, as you said, uh the the the underlying theme. So whatever you gotta do to get to that, I think is a good that that's that really made me feel good. So I appreciate that answer. Got it. All right, um, Nathan, let's finish with one question. Uh we have always tried to, and we we did it once or twice and got bad answers. We tried not to ask what's your favorite, right? I we Kidding about your favorite book behind you before. We're not gonna ask that. But here's what I'd like to ask you is in all of your writing and the the the time you have spent with the these great leaders, and maybe it's even yourself, right? Maybe it's a story with yourself. Um is there a connect uh excuse me a story that you think everyone should hear? That that would hit home, that would it may be an emotional story, it may be a uh any any a heartfelt story, any kind of story that just comes from your connections that you think everyone should hear.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

So yeah, I've been I've been so fortunate to be around so many really interesting, um, unique people. I'll share one um that that um I shared in Tampa with you all, um, just because it to me it it it underscores so much of what I believe and and where I'm coming from. And and it was the story of of the father calling into the Colts' offices when Tony was still the head coach, and the father whose son was going through depression, and the father was watching the son on this downward spiral. And Tony had a son um as well who had who had taken his own life, and the father was fear fearing that his son was on this path, and asked Tony if he would mind calling him. And so Tony did and spoke to the to the young man over a period of weeks. And at the end of that, the young man asked Tony, By the way, I keep forgetting to ask you, what do you do? And Tony said, Well, I'm I'm a football coach. And and the young man said, That's so cool, high school or college. And of course, Tony was head coach of the Colts and was coming off Super Bowl win and was on you know the Tonight Show and Letterman and everything else that that existed. And it's a reminder to me that we often can look for boy, if only I was the AD for the entire county, or if only I was the head football coach who was, you know, winning state championship, or only I was Tim Tebow's on TV all the time or going before Congress. But the reality is that you and I uh are gonna talk to people over the next day, week, month, whatever, that others won't, right? And so, and so can I make a difference wherever I am in building somebody up and mentoring somebody and helping them on their path, whatever it may be. And so often I at least look for ways in which I'm not enough, right? And I'll find myself going, Yeah, well, sure, that's great for Tony, but who am I and what can I do? So that to me is is um just such a classic Tony story that he would have never told the young man. And then at the end of it, the young man didn't know, and you realize, okay, that isn't even what mattered, what mattered, but some somebody picked up the phone and said, I care. And just a great reminder for me.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

Yeah, it's great. Well, thanks for reminding us what mattered today. Thanks for uh reminding us um what mattered through your writing. I know I've got several of your books right behind me, and um I mean they're just fantastic to to read about uh great people. Um and then that question you asked, can I make a difference where I am now? That's that's a great question to leave us with. Uh so appreciate that. Now, Nathan, we have a little fun at the end. We do a little two-minute drill, so we're gonna get to know you a little bit better. Don will take the lead on this and we'll we'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

All right. Okay, Nathan, we're gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. Uh, we want you to just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind. So, what was the first job you ever had ever in your life?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Boys' club making sure the uh Tea Leaguers didn't kill themselves. They called me a coach, but I was making sure they didn't hit each other with bats when they were getting ready to go to the plate.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

Okay, good job. That's a tough job right there. Give a four-year-old a bat, that's that's a weapon. Right? Good. All right, best leadership advice you've ever received.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Uh be true to who you are.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

Good. Something that always makes you laugh.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Um, dumb and dumber. My wife's gonna be so disappointed that I said that. What would she want you to say? Something more sophisticated, something more highbrow. Yeah.

unknown 48:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Although she laughs along with me, but she just doesn't want me to always admit it to people.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

All right. We'll ask a serious one, so she'll be happy with us right here. Something you're currently trying to learn.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

I am trying to learn uh Spanish. I am on day 37. I've decided I'm 57 years old. I took German in high school, forgot everything as soon as I got out of classroom, and I thought, you know what? I want to make new connections in my brain, work a little harder, and then be able to communicate.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

That's great. Now you may have already answered this. What movie do you wish that you could watch again for the first time?

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Hoosiers.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Good answer. All right, let's play a game of this or that. So we'll give you two things, and you gotta pick one. Writing early in the morning or late at night?

SPEAKER_04 49:10

Uh late at night. Okay, the locker room before the game or the locker room after the game?

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Before.

SPEAKER_03 49:18

Good. A powerful story or a powerful statistic?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Story.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

All right. Underdog story or dynasty story?

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Underdog.

SPEAKER_03 49:33

Nice. Alright, so we're gonna close it out here with uh we're gonna we always use uh Brett Ledbetter's What Drives Winning. He's got a book called 365 Questions.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

So bumped into Brett down in Gazew, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Yeah, maybe we have crossed a little bit, and then uh Becky Burley, uh work with him as well, of course, is an icon down here. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:52

Good deal. So pick a number between one and three hundred and sixty-five.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Okay. Uh 172.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

172. Think back on your last 30 days. What have you given attention to that you shouldn't have?

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

Wow, that's a uh Yeah, they're all like this in case you're wondering. It wouldn't have mattered what number you picked.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Okay. So, and I don't mean to be, you know, the you know, what what is your weakness? Well, the we you know, my weakness is that I care too much. Um, you know, that whole interview question and whatever. But but it's interesting. I've got a um I've got an app uh on my phone um that helps me with like daily to-dos, and it's for somebody with ADHD, which apparently I've got. Um and I have really worked hard uh over the last two months to kind of make sure I've got all my stuff and stay on task. And so I don't sometimes I have a lot of those. Um I probably have paid more attention to the World Baseball Classic than I needed to, um, and watched too many videos of the Venezuelan and Dominican teams dancing in the dugout. Um but that has been really fun, and uh, and I've gotten kind of bogged down in that a little bit more than maybe I needed to.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

I do get distracted. I I totally get distracted by sports stories and all like, but anyway.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

That's good. Good, that's good. Like Don said, they're all tough questions there. So okay, let's finish with this. It's our trademark question today, Nathan Whitaker. You've been hanging with the ADs, but let's say you can hang out with anyone. Who would that be and what?

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Um Wow, that's really that's really hard. Um I think I would want to um I think there's some really interesting um uh brain brain scientist researchers. Um and every time I hear something, whether it's about sleep, rest, learning a new skill when we're older, learning a musical instrument, I am fascinated by how the brain works. So I think that'd be really cool to be sitting with somebody um who A understood that and B was able to bring it to my level to where I could take something from that. Um I've been doing some of those great courses things and just always trying to find, I just am absorbed by how we learn and and what we do. So maybe somebody like that. Or like an Adam Grant type where he talks about behavioral psychology and and why we do what we do. Somebody along those lines.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

Good answer. Nathan, we appreciate you pouring in athletic directors like you've done today and like you did at the NADC, uh, and continue to do through the written word through your books. We appreciate the time. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Absolutely. Thanks, Don. Thanks, Josh.

SPEAKER_04 52:53

What a treat it was to be joined by Nathan Whitaker, New York Times best-selling author, uh, an author that I've really looked up to and enjoyed the books, uh, specifically uh centered around Tony Dungey and Coach Dungey's life and coaching. Uh, just so much to be learned there through uh his faith and his uh way of doing things. As Nathan mentioned, he uh Coach Dungey wanted to validate that things could be done a certain way in the coaching industry, and he was able to do that as a Super Bowl-winning coach. And Nathan um put those into uh different books, and we're I'm so grateful that he did. But I think what I took away from today's episode is the challenge to be a learner, to go try to learn something new. I don't know exactly what that's gonna be, but all throughout this conversation, Nathan talked about wanting to learn new things, challenge his brain, push himself uh from an intellectual standpoint. And I think that's what we need to take away. And I think if you want to tie that back into one of Nathan's titles, and we mentioned it early on, uncommon, the uncommon folks, the uncommon leaders, the elite are always challenging themselves to be better, but also to learn things that are new and learn things that they don't know. They know that they don't know things and they're willing to challenge themselves and let others challenge themselves. And Nathan made that very clear today. So, Nathan, thanks for joining us. Thanks for making us better. Uh, we appreciate all the listeners who listened and got better today as well. So we would love for you to stop or when you finish this podcast, press the like button and just uh just give us a like, give us a review if you don't mind, if you have time. We would love to hear from you. And as always, we thank you for spending your time hanging with the ADs.