SPEAKER_00 0:04

We're listening to the Hanging with the AD podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and lessons a little bit through leadership. Now here are your hosts, Jack Matthews and Don Baker.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Welcome back to the Hanging with EAD Podcast. Today's episode is one that we've been excited about for a long time because we're diving into a space that's become a true game changer at every level of athletic mental performance. Our guest today is Dr. Kellen Lee, a certified mental performance consultant with a master's degree in sports technology and a PhD in performance psychology. Kellen has worked across elite environments from professional athletics to military and organizational settings. And since January of 2023, he's been serving as a mental skills coach for the Seattle Mariners at the Major League level. He's also fluent in Spanish, which adds another layer to the way that he connects with athletes and teams. In this conversation, we're talking about what changed in athletics, why mental skills are no longer a luxury but a necessity, how leaders can build flexibility and trust and what athletic directors should actually be looking for if they're ready to bring mental performance into their programs. We'll also dig into leadership, human connection, resistance, and even how tools like AI can support growth when used the right way. There's a lot to learn today. We have no doubt that you could give this episode a few lists just to make sure that you gather all of the information that Kellen has to offer. Let's settle in and get to know Dr. Kellen Lee.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Kellen, we're so glad to have you joining Don and me for this episode of Hanging with the AD. We've always wanted to have a big league mental performance coach join us. So thanks for being with us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Oh, pleasure is mine. Really look forward to the conversation. And uh anytime I can, I can I can spread the word about mental performance, what it is, what it isn't, give people clarity of uh you know how to leverage it and uh share just share some cool stories about the mental side of performance. I'm real I'm fired up for the combo.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, so we usually we create our own little short bio, but your LinkedIn bio is perfect. So I'm just gonna kind of read off your LinkedIn here and give people a sense of who you are. Uh and so I'll jump in. Kellen Lee is an experienced certified mental performance consult at CMPC with a MA in sports psychology and a PhD in performance psychology from Grand Canyon University. He looks to enhance human performance through deliberate training of mental performance enhancement techniques to various populations, such as elite athletes, military personnel, and organizations. He's also proficient in Spanish, which I imagine helps him out a lot in his baseball career there. Uh, since January 2023, Kellen has served as a middle skills coach for the Seattle Mariners Major League Club. So congratulations on that. Um there's a lot to learn today. So, Kellen, we'll stop right there and let you fill in the rest. We call it uh the back of the baseball card bio. So if you just give us a little bit about who Kellen Lee is, what the back of your baseball card in today's world might look like, you probably used to have a good baseball card, but uh, what's the back of Kellen Lee's baseball card look like today? Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, good question. Good, good, uh, good rundown. I guess my LinkedIn doesn't need to be updated because that's all pretty spot on.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Um, yeah, I uh so I I grew up in San Diego. I played uh collegiate baseball at UC San Diego, Go Tritons, and really that's kind of where this all started. Um, as a player, I was exposed to the mental performance techniques and I reached a level of performance myself in my own game that I never really thought was possible. And I attributed a lot of that success to training the mind, being exposed to these concepts that I, you know, know and love and coach to these days to this day. Um, and that's really what got me on this on this journey. So, like you mentioned, uh got my master's degree in sports psychology. Um, and about and after that, I ended up working full-time with the United States Army for three years, doing mental performance training with that population. Um, as someone who never served in the military, I have a ton of respect for that population. And it was just a really cool experience as a civilian instructor to come in, work with the soldiers on various different uh their various performances that they're they're asked to execute. Um, and then specifically training the mental component of those performances sharpened me up as a professional. Uh, that three years' experience is invaluable. And people, I get the question all the time of like, hey, how do you get your job working in professional baseball? I, especially in the mental performance space, it's like, man, go go work with the military. It's just great experience for a lot of different reasons. Um, I'm happy to tease that out more um in the combo. But um, I as as I kept going, I got I was crazy enough to realize that my formal education wasn't done. So got went back and got my PhD in performance psychology in the midst of all that. And then um my first step into professional baseball, spent three years uh as a mental skills coach with the San Francisco Giants. Um, and then like like he's mentioned, this will be my fourth year with the Mariners. So seven years in professional baseball and you know, three years working with the military before that. But in the midst of all that, in between, a lot of consultations with different sports teams, currently working with a women's professional soccer team as well. Really just I've I've been fortunate enough to work with a lot of different performers from a lot of different contexts and a lot of different levels, high school youth, all the way up to the pro level, some Olympians as well. And uh it's just what what the cool part that I'll share right now is that regardless of what people are asked to do physically, whatever their tasks set hand are, there's certainly a mental component that can be trained. And though I might not be as well versed in other sports as I am baseball, because that was my sport growing up, really just understanding the nuances of that particular performance context and helping these performers tap into their mind so that it works for them versus against them more often. And that that's kind of the the cool part. I'm I am biased, but I think I have the greatest job in the world to be able to work with the bet the best performers in all these different contexts, but also be trusted to help them perform even better. So, yeah, that that's kind of the back of my baseball card. In addition to the personal side, wife, two young kids, um, Colton and Dawson, uh both involved the sports, obviously. And uh my wife Jaclyn works as uh as a senior associate athletic director at a D1 university. Um, so we're well well ingrained into the sports community in a lot of different contexts. So we're definitely a sports family. The Lees are definitely a sports family.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Sounds like we need to get Jaclyn on a hanging with the AD podcast, man. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

She she's right now, so she actually spent 12 years as an athletic trainer at the D1 school. Wow, and then transitioned into working as uh in charge of the business office. So she runs all the finances in and out for the athletic department. Um, and she thoroughly enjoys being involved right alongside the AD um on a lot of capital projects, a lot of you know fundraising stuff. NIL is totally different conversation. Um, but yeah, we're we're definitely a sports family. And just a side note, my brother actually plays in the major leagues. He's a catcher for the Chicago White Sox, um, Corey Lee. And uh yeah, so we have a lot, lot of lot of lot of sports ties, and it's really pretty much our entire life.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

That's great, man. Good, good deal. Well, you kind of set up my first question, so I'm gonna jump into it and uh you'll probably tie it back to kind of what you just said there. But uh there are probably plenty of people listening, maybe even the two of us sitting here talking to you who are thinking, or maybe even we're resisting the idea to say it out loud. But this this mentality of back in my day, we didn't have nor did we need all this mental skill stuff, right? That's probably been said to you many times, especially at the big leagues, probably some old timers or maybe even new timers, right? Help us understand what has changed, what led experts like you to become not just common in athletics, but a true asset both for individual athletics or excuse me, individual athletes, as you mentioned, the U.S. military, and uh, you know, especially when they're within a team setting.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah, the there's certainly occasionally just some apprehension. And I think a lot of the apprehension when it does show up is a byproduct of people just really not understanding truly what mental performance or mental skills training is. To your point, um, you know, especially some of the people who have been in their sport or been in their position for much longer, coaches, players, you know, administrators, decision makers, front office folks who um were went like went through their playing career or even early coaching career. My my profession is relatively new in like the in like the chronological history of sports jobs. There have been athletic trainers much longer than mental performance coaches, there's been strength coaches much longer, there's been administrators much longer. I mean, shoot, since sports coaches have always been a thing, the skill, the technical coaches. But when it comes to the mental performance side, it's a relatively new space.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

I'd say probably can I can I interject something? I'm a baseball guy. Y'all are so new to the sport, y'all don't even know how to dress like a baseball player, right? You gotta go to a brace game and y'all are y'all are dressed like regular people, and everybody else is in a jerk a jersey and uniform, right? So actually, no, I wear a uniform. Oh, okay. All right, that that's a different different group, then okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah, so that that that's a that's a different conversation. So yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Sorry to interrupt you there.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

No, all good. I think that's that's a really important context because uh some people in my job would be like in khakis and polos, but like for me personally, I want every single player to see me as another coach. And if coaches wear a uniform, I'm gonna wear a uniform.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

And it's really just to establish that standard that like if you're not working or talking about the mental side of performance, you're gonna be falling behind because every single hitter is gonna be talking to their hitting coach, and every single pitcher is gonna be talking to their pitching coach. And if I can seamlessly integrate myself into that space, into what they're used to seeing from a coach from a from a player's lens, even something as small as what I wear, it's gonna be an easy gateway to enter into those conversations and it becomes less threatening. And I think that's that's honestly a part of the conversation, um, really part of the answer of like it wasn't a thing years ago. It's becoming more of a thing now, and it it really is a thing, especially in professional baseball. And we're we try to establish the standard that if you're not talking about the mental game, you're gonna be falling behind and you're not you're not gonna be tapping into a lot of potential that you have. And then to to address the the old timer deal, I've been I've come across a lot of people lifers in baseball. And if there's any apprehension, sometimes honestly, people are pretty open-minded to it and they want to learn, they want to explore it and super curious. But if there is, if I do occasionally come across resistance, if we will, if you will, I I will simply just lean into their experience as a player and go like, so like can you tell me stories of like what got in your way of being consistent? Like, what prevented you from tapping into your skill set on a regular basis when you played? And guess what? Every one of their answers has to do with mindset, has to do with focus, has to do with dealing with pressure, has to do with bouncing back from adversity or dealing with failure. And I'm like, wow, like that all sounds like things going on between the ears. That's interesting. Like, though you didn't work on it back in the day, quote unquote, doesn't make it even any less relevant or even less effective than it does today. So it's really all about just building awareness that, like, regardless of whether people are aware of it or whether they like it or not, there's a mental component to all performance, whether it's the preparation going into the performance, whether it's the focus during a performance, or it's the story that you tell yourself about your performance after. It's like this before, during, and after effect of tapping people into their mindset and being really deliberate about am I mentally and physically preparing myself effectively, proactively? Am I focusing on the right thing at the right time in the right way in the moment when I have a task at hand? And then after I execute that task at hand, how am I reflecting? What am I telling myself? How am I thinking about it? How am I interpreting my performance? Am I building real self-awareness or am I just lying to myself about where my skill is? And all of that, all of those things, again, that's just like scratching the surface, is all related around mindset, mental performance, mental skills. And it really all starts with just simple awareness that this stuff exists, it's real, it's not made up. And if you're not thinking about this stuff, you're you're you're leaving performance potential on the table, is how I explain it.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

That's really good. That's what one of the questions we had a little later. You just kind of answered it. That idea of when someone's resistant, how do you handle that, right? And it's really about having those conversations with him and explaining, okay, when this happened, this is what was going on in between your ears, right? Like you didn't know it, and maybe you didn't, you weren't in an environment that allowed you to kind of explore it, but this is what it was. And so I think that's really good. I think, and then the the second part you said they remind me of John Acuff has a book, Soundtracks, uh, about listening to us and how the soundtrack in our head can you know really play games with us if we let it. And I know that that that'll happen from time to time even with my own daughter, right? I'm gonna get to them you can you can bill me later, but she'll get in her head from time to time. But it's it's I I struggle. And I think maybe this is maybe this is a question for you, like with with coaches and parents, when a kid expresses that when they say you can see it on the field, it feels like they're holding back a little bit and you're like, What's going on? You know, I know that physically, I know you're fine, and I know that you have the talent, but you're you're just not really fully there. And the answer is, man, I just I can't get out of my own head. I think I'm I think I'm less than, or maybe it maybe I I think that they're better than, or whatever it is. What is the appropriate way to have that conversation?

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. And I think you nailed it when you said the skill is there and something is like preventing for them for of them, preventing them from like tapping into the skill. And I think that's that's an excellent way to conceptualize it. And the to answer your question, it's like really exploring those conversations with a ton of curiosity and really just like continuously to poke and prod for your own awareness as a parent or a coach or an administrator, and also for them, the the kid, the player, the athlete, to build awareness because likely they're not able to like very clearly articulate like this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm thinking, this is what's preventing me from being successful. And they might just default to something like you said, like, oh, I'm just in my own head. Well, being in your own head could could sound, could look a lot of different ways. Are they fearful of their their performance? Are they fearful of losing? Are they feel fearful of losing their starting spot? Are they fearful of what their parents or what their coaches are going to say after the fact? Like there's so many different layers to this. And especially kids, especially teenagers, they can't very clearly articulate what exactly they're they're afraid of or where that uncertainty is creeping in. But I think as a coach, as a leader, as a as a parent, it's like understanding that like uncertainty, like the world and especially sports is riddled with uncertainty. There's we we we cannot predict what's coming next. As much as we would love to as humans, we have no idea what's happening next. And the only thing we can have certainty in is everything we do up until the moment of us facing the uncertainty. So when you when you notice, when you see it on their face, I know exactly what you're talking about. When you see it on their face when they're a little bit apprehensive and they're skeptical, or they're like holding back for some reason from a physical skill standpoint, it's very evident. It's really important just to go, like, hey, like what were you thinking in that moment? I noticed something, and like I can't help you unless you share like what was going on through your head. Maybe they don't know, maybe they don't remember. But like tuning it in, tuning tuning them into like, wow, like I saw something different, and I'm not judging, I'm just like, I want to be curious and like understand it a little bit better because that's like the the the beauty and the curse of working on the mental game is you can't touch it, you can't see it from like a thought standpoint. You can see behaviors and you can see actions, but there's so much nuance when it comes to the human brain and the human mind that like that's what I honestly I love it. I love living in the gray area and like really picking at these different like nuanced parts of just being a human and being like an athlete in general. Um, but you just have to like find the right ways to spark the conversation. I know that's not a great answer because it's not specific, but these these experiences are not specific. It's so nuanced and so like sometimes super general for people.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Um let me let me ask let me ask you this. We talk about all the time, uh, in especially with high school athletics or youth sports uh in particular, that idea about winning the ride home. Uh, you know, that ride home can be it can it can be super helpful or it can be a nightmare, right? And so what you you're talking about having these conversations. Is that really just knowing your kid as to the best time to lean into that conversation? Or you I don't necessarily know if there's a right or a wrong time to do it. It probably just depends on that kid, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah, time and place, and it's like the what you say, the when you say it, the how you say it, and the why you say it all should be considered when you're engaging in these type of conversations. And um, man, I could I could talk an hour just about that that ride home and different strategies that you can get into with kids, but um at the end of the day, like you want you want them to have a good experience with their sport, especially in the youth sports. Like that's really what it's about. You know, in the professional game, there's a little bit nuance there with business, and there's a lot of other moving parts that are just not relevant to the youth game.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Um, but yeah, I mean, like understanding where they're at, if they're gonna be in the right mindset to even receive any type of feedback or even engage in the conversation, like rule of thumb, and I share this with youth and and high school coaches all the time. It's like most things can wait 24 hours. There's not a lot of things that are like super urgent that you have to change right away. As a coach, if you're like, or even as a parent, like if you're just unsure about how this is gonna land or if this is the right time, like just put a pin in it, gather your thoughts, do some prep work on the front end so that it maybe it's not gonna be perfect. There's really no such thing as perfect timing, but it could be better timing, it could be a more well-thought out, you know, message that you want to deliver. Things can wait. Most of most things, no, it's not the best, like this is really general, but like a lot of feedback, a lot of those conversations can wait. And sometimes it just takes us as the adults in the situation to like think think critically of like how this is gonna land the best, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

No, it no, it totally does. I one of the things that that I started doing with her when she gets in the car, my first thing to her is, I'm so happy to see you. Like, yeah, like good to see you, babe. Like it's immediate positive, right? And then we she'll get in and I'd let her have her spaces, I let her have a moment, right? And we start driving down the road, and then she has started to kind of guide that conversation. She'll go, Man, I've I'm stuck today, or I've had a great day today. And then that's my kind of that's my door, right? To get in and start having those conversations one way or the other. And one of the things that we have kind of latched onto is this idea of you may have a bad moment. That bad moment doesn't mean you're a bad player. It was that moment and it and it has nothing to do with what's going to happen next or what happened before it, right? It was a small little snapshot in time. Is there any other lessons or maybe a go-to quick hitter in the realm of mental skills and mental performance that you would teach that maybe any athlete could use or or a parent could use that you know they could maybe find success with?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Can I cheat and give you two?

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Of course you can.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Okay, good. Uh, because it's hard to just choose one. I think the in that context of just like the quick hitter or just like something that's really easy to rationalize and can honestly spark really fruitful conversations to build self-awareness and and just have a clear way forward. The first one, the first more conceptual, the second's more specific. And the first one conceptually is there's a massive difference when players or coaches are striving to be better versus striving to be good. And and I think like a lot of times coaches get caught up and players get caught up, and it's like, I want to be good. Well, it's like, well, I'm sorry to to to break the news, but like every athlete, every coach likely wants to be good at what they do. No one wants to be bad. So it's like, well, okay, fine, let's put that to a side. But like if you frame everything, all the messaging you have with your players and your coaches and your and your kids of like, hey, how did you get better today? It feels way more attainable. It feels way more fulfilling because good, good is so arbitrary. It's like, what is good? Is that comparing to your teammates? Is that comparing to your opponents? Is that comparing to some arbitrary standard that you set for yourself? It's like there's really no, it's really, it's much harder to measure versus like better, better is easier to measure and more attainable and feels more tangible to people, right? Because everyone wants to be good. And then at the end of the day, kind of the punchline here is in order to become good, you have to become better first. So, like, why not start with this fo this soul focus on like how can this be better? Everything is about being better, and it's not about like not being satisfied, because I think that can get misconstrued and confused. It's like, well, if you try to always be better, you never satisfy. I'm like, no, that's not what I'm talking about. But when you're talking about the messaging and the feedback and like the conversations of like, you know, in the right home, it's like, hey, what do you think you got better at today? You know, maybe the answer is nothing. It's like, oh, well, if you didn't get better at anything, like, how can you change? How can we look look to find ways to give you better in the future? And if everything is framed around being better, it's less there. I think perfectionism gets gets gets like minimized the impact of perfectionism. I see it a lot with kids a lot, like more so than ever, I think now, but good perpetuates perfectionism, better perpetuates like a learner's mindset or a growth mindset, and they celebrate mistakes and they're they're more willing to put themselves out there and challenge themselves because when people know, like people inherently know that if they challenge themselves in something in a training setting, and even if there's not a lot of success, like they know in in in their gut that they got better that day and like super satisfying. So that's the first one. And then the second one is around just overall thought management for performers for coaches, and I and I think it it's a really important distinction because I I think I hear a lot from coaches like, oh, like you're just gonna tell them to think positively, and it's like absolutely not, you'll never hear me say that, and let me explain why. I would rather people think about in in relation to thoughts, think about thoughts are productive or counterproductive, effective or ineffective, or helpful and unhelpful, because positive versus negative leaves way too much subjectivity, right? Whereas productive, counterproductive, effective, ineffective, helpful, unhelpful, whichever variation lands with whoever you're talking to, is way more objective. And I and and I think that becomes if you can use that, establish that common language, it becomes much easier when you go like talking to a player and they say, like, hey, I'm not very good, or I suck today. You can simply ask, like, is that thought productive for you? Because you're not talking about the negativity, because we already we on the surface, we know that's a negative thought. But if you frame it in a way of like, hey, is that is that is that thought helpful for you? It really causes a little bit more deeper thinking of going, like, you know what? That's probably not helpful for me. And then you can get on the train of like, what's more helpful, what's more productive, what's more effective. And the reason another reason I say this is that I can come up with a a handful of examples of positive thoughts that are actually counterproductive, and on the flip side, negative thoughts that can be productive contextually. And so that's why, like, when I when I talk about just like overall thought management with players and coaches and and leaders, it's like, I don't really care if a thought is positive or negative. That's not what's important to me. What's important to me is you start to think about is this helpful or unhelpful? Is it effective or ineffective? Is it productive or counterproductive given the context or the task that I have at hand? And it gives a much more like objective and more critical framework to like reflect on your thoughts. Um, and honestly, it's just it's really easy to enter a conversation. It's like, dude, was that helpful? Or what would be more helpful? What would be a more helpful thought in that moment? Instead of like, what's more positive? It's like, well, if things are objectively bad and you force positivity, like in our gut, like we we have a really good like internal like BS meter that goes, like, you know what, that's not true. We just know, we just know. So again, like the the strive for better versus strive for good, and then like the thinking productively versus counterproductively is incredibly beneficial for really anyone when they're thinking about just overall mindset stuff.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah, uh it's like you're you're immediately tapping into their social awareness, right? When you when you frame it that way, it's like boom, they can immediately tap into that. I think that's I think that's great advice.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Yeah, man, that's some really good stuff there. That's that's awesome. I just don't look forward to when I call Don one day and let him know where I'm at, what I'm dealing with, and he's gonna say, is that is that thought productive? He's gonna turn that around all. Yes, he will. And then I'm gonna say, Shut up, and I'm gonna hang up. That is true. That is true.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Even in that context, like you can see like the immediate impact of like shoot, that's gonna make me think twice or even three times about what I'm what I'm like the story that I'm telling myself, which causes like a quicker adjustment. Like you you could see that happening really quickly.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's good stuff. All right, uh, Kellen, let's talk about leaders uh a little bit. I'm gonna mention a name you may know and remember. Uh, I once heard Ken Ravizza talk about the yeah, yeah, you know that name, right? Uh uh he talked about the importance of flexibility, especially for coaches navigating new situations. I think he shared a story about Kyle State Fullerton going to the College World Series and about how once they got to Omaha, uh everything changes. There's there's demands, they multiply, they're they're all over the place, right? I think about the recently played CFP national championship game, probably the same thing for those coaches. Uh, you know, uh uh he mentioned in Omaha, someone steps on the bus, hands someone an itinerary, and you realize as a coach, you no longer operate or dictate the normal routine. You you're being told what to do, when to do it, how to do it almost. So, from your perspective, talk to leaders. What do you teach leaders about developing flexibility within their situational leadership? How do they stay grounded and effective when the environment and the expectations uh shift around them?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, that I mean, being able to adapt to your environment uh is incredibly impactful for your leaders because the the the those followers, the followers of those leaders are going to be a reflection of that leader. And if you want the people who are your follow following you to be adaptable and flexible and really be able to like kind of roll with the punches, so to speak, depending on you know what what's going on, you want to be a model of that. So when when we have these conversations with leaders or you know, front office folks that that we interact with in the baseball world, um, we we just help them understand that like their their ability to be adaptable is going to be the like the trajectory of how productive they can be with the whatever decision they make or messaging they have. And specifically, like when it comes to routine, like flexibility within routines, I think is a really cool way to talk about this. In that I get as you can imagine in the baseball world, I get a question around around like what's the difference between a superstition and a routine. Like, I I I have I have to like tease that out for guys. And the best, the best way I've described or best, you know, way of describing it that I've landed on it up until this point is routines prepare you for something in the future, and superstitions are the reason why it didn't go the way you planned after the fact. It's like, oh, I didn't do this, so I'm not be able to be successful. It's like, well, that's not actually true, it just didn't work out the way you want it to, and you're just trying to find a scapegoat or like blame it for a reason. That's like the nuance there. So when someone asks me, like, how do I know if it's a routine versus a superstition and how do I distinguish? My answer is that if you can logically explain how something prepares you for something in the future, that's probably a piece of a routine. And if you can't logic how something's gonna prep like actually prepare you for something in the future, and and you feel like you can't adjust it at all, that's probably a superstition.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

I tell you what, hey, Josh is getting ready to hear that one again, too, because through my office, we should still say the transportation for the district.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

I've already thought about those.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

I know we're so we'll look at when the bracket comes out, right? And I tell them, listen, we've got to prepare to make sure we've got abundance for you. So they have to anticipate, you know, maybe we might win or we might not, but I've got to know where you're going. And they are so resistant to that. They feel like if they say that they're gonna be going to, you know, wherever the winner's gonna go, that that somehow that's gonna result in some voodoo that makes them not win, right? And I'm like, say that again about routines. What did you just say? Say that again.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

So routines, no, no matter what they are, and I'll give a couple examples to make it super clear. Routines prepare you for something in the future.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And superstitions are usually the reasons why something didn't work out after the fact. It's like the scapegoat. It's like that, whatever. So here's a really easy example, non-sport example, just a human example. Most of us, hopefully, a lot of us, have like a morning routine to get us ready for the day. A lot of us have a bedtime routine to get us ready to go to sleep. Some people will have their routine before like a big presentation. They'll, you know, mentally do some visualization of seeing themselves in that room and asking questions. I'm sharing that because that's exactly what I do when I talk to a big group. I take myself there mentally, kind of see how it's going to go, anticipate questions, anticipate answers. And that's how I get myself mentally. That's part of my routine for like a public speaking event. Um, you know, hitters will have their pre-pitch routine, their pre-at-bat routine. The pitchers will have pre-pitch routines, you know, in a different sport. Like I'm a hack golfer. My mental game of golf is much better than my physical game. But like thinking about like your pre-shot routine before every shot, like going through, like visualizing your shot, maybe taking a practice swing and then getting up on the T and you know, let it rip. Hopefully swing straight in case it goes or swing hard in case it goes straight. But that like those are different examples of just like what routines are. We all inherently know what routines are, but to like really clearly define it, that it's like the whole point of a routine is to prepare us for something coming in the future, no matter what it is, whether it's bedtime, whether it's the day, whether it's the next pitch, the next shot in golf, whatever. It's to get us feeling more ready, more confident for whatever's coming next. Superstitions don't do that for us, they don't do that. They they simply are the reason why something didn't work out. So it's a scapegoat, it's all it is, and there's no logic behind it. There's no logic.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Well, get ready to see that at our next meeting, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

So just just quote anonymous, don't throw me under the bus to you to use that. Just don't quote me, but feel free to share it.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yep. Kellen, I'm sorry. We got video evidence. They go get the video, they're gonna get the video replay right there. Yeah, you're right. And here's why here's where I was going with that thought. You said routines logically prepare us, and then you got into superstitions. You didn't say, I'm thinking about one sport in particular, didn't have a bracket. They, yeah, they still have to qualify, but we know when their state media is, right? And they have always been superstitious not to put their buses in because they don't want to mess it up, right? Uh, but when it comes down to it, that superstition is actually uh leading them to be more unprepared because they got to spend more time doing that act after they qualify versus now when they have plenty of time and when they need to be preparing for that huge event, they're having to spend whatever little time and middle energy. So superstitions actually are counter to use a word earlier, counterproductive to routine. So that's exactly right. I mean, that nailed it. That was a home run right there, man. I'm telling that was awesome. Great, great question.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

So good. Now, there are probably uh some ADs that are listening to this right now, because I'll go ahead and tell you this is an absolute home run, in my opinion, everything that you've said so far. And they're thinking that man, we really need this in our program. Okay. And if if an AD is interested in bringing in a mental performance expert to assist with their athletic department, let's be honest, as the the majority of the people listening to this are in a high school setting, right? So it's not like the budget is through the roof. We all know that budget, accident, availability, all of that matters. But beyond the logistics of it, what should an athletic director really be thinking about to make sure that they find the right fit for their kids' coaches and overall culture?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Gosh, hey, for the record, I'm reaching out to Kellen Lee first. So nobody else is getting it. All the other high schools in America, no, no, we got it.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, like first of all, like I just really appreciate that question. And I mean, I'll be honest, like, I've done I've done a handful of of podcasts and like webinars and just like connecting with a lot of ADs or leaders, and that's the first time I've ever fielded that question. So like I just really appreciate that because it means that you're thinking about the right things. So I'm just gonna I'm gonna rattle off a couple different things to consider when you're looking to like explore this space. Um a good place to start would be the Association for Applied Sports Psychology, the AASP ASP. Um, there you can go into the website and there's a database of all certified mental performance consultants, um, you know, all across the country, all across the world. We have international as well. Um, so that would be a good place to start. A lot of people, if they keep their profile up to date, will have, you know, what the what their experiences are, where they specialize, different sports. Is it male, is it female, is it youth, is it high school, is it college? And then you can kind of get just a vibe of like, all right, well, this is what this person specializes in, what they, you know, what they value, what not. Um you can also get a vibe as to, you know, are they are they again a little bit more context here? Are they someone like myself who is purely mental performance focused? Or there's some folks out there that are like half and half like mental health and then mental performance, because that there is a difference there. So if you if you're looking for someone with with more of a mental health focus, you can you can kind of tease out the people that are listed in the database there. Um, or if you just want someone who's just purely mental performance focused, like myself, whether it's to work with coaches or players or or leaders and whatnot, like again, there's a there's a nuance there we can get into, but you can start by looking at the database there. Um, so again, the the standard in terms of just like the the minimum level of knowledge and experience is the CMPC certified mental performance consultant. Um, it's very similar to on the strength and strength and conditioning side, they have the CSCS, the athletic trainers have the ATC. Um, so it's just like the minimum standard of someone who went to school to get trained up, who has the certification. And the certification includes like uh supervised hours. So as a fresh graduate student, I got some hours as a graduate student, but when I first graduated from grad school, I had to go out and find different teams, different people to work with and accumulate hours and experience. And I met with a mentor and I shared my work and got feedback, and that's all part of the CMPC process. Um, so I actually do supervise a few like people who are in pursuit of their CMPC, giving a mentorship, talking about different strategies, best practices, and whatnot. So if you see someone listed who has a CMPC as part of their title or resume, you know that they've at least got the minimum education experience, the hours and whatnot. Um trying to think what else would be something to consider. Um I mean, obviously there's there's a price attached to it. Everyone has a different going rate, of course. And to your point, like high school athletic budgets are a lot different than a lot of different contexts, and that is completely valid. Um, what I've done, it just again, just I don't want this is like a not even a plug for myself, but what I've done for organizations like that is do like offer up like a like a webinar where it's a low cost per head, but it's you know mass audience to get content out to share different things, like that's a definitely an option for like a lower quote unquote lower budget option to get the masses, the content. Um, that's been an option. Um yeah, again, I'm just kind of spitballing um different things that I've seen or heard of in the past. Um, but the at the end of the day, like there's a lot of there's a lot of good professionals out there doing really good work across the country, regardless of you know, wherever you're tuning into this podcast. Like there's a lot of people out there that want to do the work. And really truthfully, like the high school game is untapped, like high school levels untapped in this space. Um, even some of the college, even in the college space, like the majority of college athletic departments are primarily focused on bringing in like a two birds, one stone approach where their mental health and mental performance trained up, minimize staff members. It's a more bang for their buck. Um, but really just like again, in my eyes, just the short to give you the short end of it. The most effective model when it comes to like really rolling out a program is to have someone dedicated to the mental health side and having someone or people dedicated to just the mental performance so that people are getting whatever resource they need, whether it is the specific mental health uh resource or support that they need, which is there's a massive need for that across the across the board. Or do they want really want to focus on just the mental aspects of performance? It really is like a two two-pronged job. It's really challenging, it's doable, but very challenging to do both if someone is trained in both, which I'm not. Just I'm just mental performance. But um, again, just kind of spitballing, but a really good question and a lot of things to consider when you're thinking about bringing someone in to work with your group.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Let me ask you this. Is there I'm again, I'm thinking I'm in a high school, I don't have money to to necessarily be expendable at the same time. I'm dealing with coaches that, unlike say in the college or professional space, I have a very finite time that I have them on a daily basis. So a lot of coaches don't want to sacrifice, we we see this a lot with character education type programs. Coaches don't want to sacrifice their practice time to do these things, even though we try to tell them that this could result in wins, even though it's not X's and O's, right? Are there resources out there that somebody like a counselor in the building who has kids that of their own that play athletics and maybe they're they're kind of like your athletic counselor that they could tap into to maybe fill the void in the event that you don't have the resources for anything else? I'm just kind of curious.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, I think that that is an option and like really anything, any exposure to conversations around mindset or mentality is going to be beneficial. Um, the the one thing I will say is depending on whoever that individual is, whether it's a parent or you know, friend of the program, friend of the school, depending on their their background, would just would drive them to talk about different things, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:49

One or the other, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah. So like that that's just like something to be aware of. Like, not every person's gonna deliver the same content. Again, it's really dependent on where they're coming from, their vantage point. And that's why I wanted to be really clear when you asked about the back of the baseball card of like what my perspective is, because for all the listeners out there, it's like I want you to understand exactly what how I see this work so that you know exactly like what to expect from me and what what not to expect me to. I think that's also important. Like, again, I'm very, very adamant about making people making people understand that like I'm a mental health advocate, I'm not a mental health professional. Like, there's a very difference there, big difference. Like, I'm a I'm just a coach who dresses the mental aspects of performance, and that's how I see myself, and that's how that's my vantage point. So, to that point of like, you know, bringing in somebody that you know could foster some of these conversations around mindset, like I think that's great. I think it's awesome. Just understand that like you might not be getting what you expect sometimes, or it might be different than what you expect. Um, it really all is dependent on their their background and where they're coming from, their experience. And but yeah, to your point, like encouraging it's gonna be hard to encourage your coaches to spend time on this stuff, but man, it it really is a competitive advantage. Um, because to most people aren't talking about it, so why wouldn't you? Is kind of my rhetorical question, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah, that's great, great point there. Do something everyone else is not doing to give you give you an advantage. That's right. Um all right, Kellen. Let's let's talk about let's see who who you are as a coach a little bit here. Yeah, we're gonna put you kind of in a in a situation to coach yourself. Uh, you as you mentioned, you played at UC San Diego, you were an all-American, I think third team all-American, but man, you got that in on your resume. So that's pretty incredible. Uh, if the version of you with a PhD and middle performance could have walked alongside that all American version of you as a player, how would that have changed things? In what ways would the player have been better with the knowledge, perspective, and training that you have in your back pocket now?

SPEAKER_01 43:55

That's that's such a good question. The side note before I answer people ask me, like, I've been asked like what superpower I would want. And it would be 100% time travel to know what I know now back in the day. There you go. Um, so to answer the question specifically, it's like, I think I would tell that player, young Kellen Lee, to stop caring about things that are outside my control. Like, you know, I my again, I experienced some success as a as a player in college. I was obsessed with trying to get drafted. And I focused so much of my energy on, you know, what did the scouts think about me? What are all these people thinking about me? And it just took away from what actually mattered, which was just getting better and staying focused on the task at hand and just being the best version of myself on a regular basis. And even though I did have some success, like I had success as a college player, like I just know there was untapped potential there. And and I think a lot of it had to do with again focusing on things outside my control, um, and just giving weight to things that are just not relevant or important. Um, I think that's a really common trap for players, too. Um, you know, again, like other people's perceptions or the narratives about who they are. Um, and also I think another nuanced part of this, another piece of advice I'd give myself back in the day would be like I as a as a as a player on my team specifically, contextually, like I was one of the leaders as a catcher. It's kind of a byproduct of the position. I really took pride in trying to be a leader for my for my team. I wanted to be a leader on the team. And I think sometimes I was so hyper focused on being a leader that I lost sight of like what I actually needed as a player to be better and be good. Like I was so others focused, which again could sound like something really good, but I think it manifested in a way where I just lost sight as to like what I actually needed to execute to to like sharpen my skills, be better, and reach my full potential. Um, because I was so focused on being a leader. And I think for the leaders out there they're listening, like, wow, like like I have fallen that trap too. You have to find a healthy balance of like taking care of what you need. And I don't want that to sound selfish because it's not. It's like taking care of what you need as a player, what conversations do you have to have with your coaches to have clarity of what to focus on to get to sharpen up your skills, while also simultaneously being a good role model, being a good teammate, communicating with your teammates, being that leader that you want to be, you can do both. You can have this sense of like, what do I need and what do they need? And having a really good push-pull of that. And I did not have a good balance of that as a player. I was more focused on other people than I was myself. And I think my like overall potential suffered because of it. Um and yeah, I think it was just a lot of like I let other things outside my control really creep into mind that just wasn't important, didn't matter, and it was just a wasted like time, energy, focus, and inner time, energy, focus, and um effort are all limited resources. And if you allocate those limited resources to things outside your control, you're wasting all those limited resources. So when it comes to time, energy, effort, and focus, be super intentional about allocating them to the things that are within your control because you'll be way more efficient, way more productive. Um, and I just I wasted those limited resources as a player. So that's the advice I'd give myself back in the day.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

That's a great advice for anybody, even today. I think a lot of us uh in this drive, you you just kind of just spoke directly to me. I have a tendency to say yes too much. Uh you know, in in helping, you know, every time I get out, hey, can you do this? Can you do that? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then then before I know it, I am at max capacity. And then I feel like the product that I've given back sometimes isn't what it should be. The quality is not what it should be as a result of continually setting yes. I think that's something that that a lot of leaders need to hear. Now, we we mentioned this earlier, this idea about people being resistant to what you do. And I can only imagine the the importance of trust uh in, you know, they've got to trust you. Uh when you're dealing with the military, you're talking about life or death, right? That that's a completely different animal as opposed to you know to contest on the field, even though that athlete is life or death for them in that moment. How do you build trust that then leads to growth for those that you work with?

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yeah, um, trust trust is is a prerequisite to be able to have a good working relationship, especially when it comes to anything related to the mind, right? Like people are protective with their mind and they should. Like that's that's what drives everything that we do. And they should, you know, approach things with um with caution. Like I do, I don't think that's a problem. And I do think there's a subtle difference between closed-mindedness and skepticism, skeptical. Like right, I almost promote skepticism. And the reason why is skepticism tends to breed curiosity, and curiosity leads to learning. And I'm like, there's you sometimes you just have to shift them from like being being closed-minded to being skeptical. And so sometimes, like, honestly, that's that's a that's a part of building trust. Like, I I want I encourage skepticism with the with the people that I that I come across with, especially initially, because like if I demand trust and say, you know what, you listen to me, I have this value to add to you, like I'm gonna lose their trust. But if I go, like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna present this concept, this idea, this skill set, and I am encouraging you to poke holes and ask questions and give pushback and like ask like more. And honestly, that kind of opens the door to build trust. And it might sound counterintuitive where I'm like almost promoting like combativeness and tension, but like sometimes that tension can be incredibly powerful when it comes to building trust. And I think like that's a piece of it. Another piece of it is just like consistent presence and like showing up for the people that that you want to make an impact with. And I'll and I'll share a story without sharing his name, but one of our players, um, this was especially relevant this year, you know, he's been in the organization for a couple years. Um, and I've known him for a couple years, we've been super cordial, like really, really great kid, um, but really hasn't like like gone down the rabbit hole of like really talking about mindset and really like getting in there and trying to like find ways to be better. But like again, we've always had like a good relationship, but just really hasn't like flourished into like a really like fruitful coaching relationship, which is fine. But there was this one moment during this one game in the middle of the summer, I was staying in the dugout in my uniform because I wear a uniform, and that's right, watching watching the game, and he sit right next to me. We're talking about the most random things this in this moment, and he just kind of like looks at me and he's like, Kellen, I got a question for you. And as soon as like I hear that, I was like, Okay, this is what I've been waiting for. Like the like the two and a half years of just showing up and being present, like was manif like all like led us to that moment where he's just like, Okay, now I want to, I want to go there. Like, I want to go there. And you know, in the midst of the conversation, just a quick summary of it. It was like he admitted that he's in he's a chronic pessimist, and he hold he really hard on himself, and he's not he's he's like, that's just counterproductive. Like, I know it's not helpful. And he's like, I want to be better. He's like, I want you to hold me accountable, I want you to call me out when I'm like throwing a pity party, and like he kind of gave me permission to do all these things for him because he just knew that he recognized that it was not not helpful, and it was really the first time that he had gone to that space. But to your point, like it really took almost two and a half years of like building trust for him to be able to like really go there. And if I wasn't present and I wasn't cordial with him and I didn't take the time to really like connect with him and not force anything, not force that that that coaching relationship. I don't know if that moment would have uh would have ever happened. And again, I wish it was like a a beautiful, like like like fairy tale ending to the story. Like he's still struggling, still trying to figure out like how he fits in for this mindset and like really tapping into a skill set. So I wish there was a fairy tale ending to the story, but like my point in the telling the story is that sometimes it takes time and patience is really important. Um, because if you try to force some of that working relationship together, it's it's just not gonna work, and it's it's gonna feel like there's more tension, it's not gonna be productive. Um, and you could potentially be leaving something that happens down the down on like uh in the future on the table. So um, yeah, just being present, super, super important, and like really genuinely show that you care about where they're at, what they're doing, their career. And I mean, I'll be frank. Sometimes I'll I'll I'll be really blunt with the players and go like, why would I ever give you less than my best? Because my job depends on your performance. Yeah, like, and I'm very, very outfront about that.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

I'm like, that's a bad business model for you, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Right? It's terrible. Like, why did I choose this as a career? But like, like, it's so volatile, coaches get fired and hired all the time. Like, you know, there's you get hired to get fired eventually. But like the truth is, like, why would I ever give someone less than what I believe to be the best? Because like I want them to to be a really good player and increase their industry value, and for us, like as a byproduct, win a lot of major league baseball games, and and I can at the same time give them my best, and like they're those two work together. And sometimes people are like, Oh, like the organization's out to get me. It's like, well, why would you ever say that? Because if you're if you if you're terrible on the field, that's a bad reflection on us. Like, and again, I would never ever ever ever take credit for someone performing well, ever. That is them, that is their career, and but also I want to be held to it held accountable and go, like, you know what, I do have some piece of the pie, I don't know how big it is. Um, so like that just adds an extra layer of pride for me to go, like, dude, like I genuinely care about your your career for you and for me, but it is about you because another way to think about this without players, I don't have a job. Who am I supposed to coach?

SPEAKER_02 54:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Like, it's I have a job because of players, so it has to be about the players. Um, but again, like I would never give them less than my best because they're a reflection of our coaching, you know?

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Yeah, that's good. Hey, talk about the I mean, just a question I had. I mean, I've never heard of skepticism be turned as a positive there and and in a and and and something you promote, which is good. But I guess I started thinking about how much what what's the difference in skepticism versus cynicism then? Yeah, is that is that the comparison where skepticism becomes the positive thought process mindset?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah, I think like when I think about cynicism, I I equate, I like I not equate it, but like I connect it to how I conceptualize pessimism, where it's just like they're constantly looking for things that are wrong versus like skepticism, it's like I'm just unsure.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

And like I'm not they're gonna go seek it out, they're gonna go find it, right? That's that's what you said about that curiosity. It it promotes, hey, I'm gonna I is that is that hitting is that you know, uh just technique, could it help me? And then they go try it out, right? Something like that. Yeah, that's physical, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Yeah, yeah, that's the subtle difference there, where it's like cynics or the pessimists are just like constantly pointing out what's wrong. I think someone who embodies like more of skepticism, it's more of like, I'm not saying this is wrong or right, I just want to learn more about it. Like there, it's again, I think it probably on a spectrum, right? Where like like uh skepticism is probably just to the right of like a cynic or a pessimist, and it kind of deviates into like you know uh compliant, and then just like there's like again, a lot of different ways again. I don't have the top of my head in terms of a spectrum, but like that's the way I'd answer that. It's like I want skepticism to to manifest in curiosity, like at that the end of the day, like any way I can spark curiosity, I know where it's a win. Um, so that's why I just like, dude, like tell me if you don't agree with this, like poke some holes in this. Let's like really get into the weeds so that you can wrap your head around it. Um, because I do know what ends up happening is if they learn more about it and they understand it and they truly believe in it, the fact that we went through the process of understanding it deeper and like tried to poke holes in it and it's still like strong for them, they're more likely to adhere to whatever they just committed to doing.

SPEAKER_02 57:11

Yeah, that's good. We used to I I used to work with a coach and he would evaluate our practices and in the one drill in particular that we did for years and years, and we would go to conferences and he would come back and say, Do we need to do this and this? And we sit there and talk about it, and we always came back to that same drill uh period or whatever. Yeah, you know, Don and I talk about it all the time with leadership, the the humble leaders. And I think maybe to use your word, the skeptic leader has the ability to use that word I don't or that phrase, I don't know, but let me go try to find out. Yeah, the the cynic's not gonna say that, right? There's no way that's not working them out, you know. I don't know, but let me go try to find out. And and that's what I heard you say when you talk about the skeptic being uh being manifesting into uh a curious leader. That's that's really good. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Um and honestly, to the trust piece that connects to the trust of like, if you use the, you know what, I don't really, I'm unsure, and I want to I'm gonna find out and follow up with you. That is way better for trust than like BSing an answer and just going like, oh, you pull something out and make it sound good. It's like, well, that feels so inauthentic, and you walk away as the person who delivered, like, ah, I just fed them a bunch of stuff that just doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

Like, that's everybody else finds out that other stuff's not true, probably it's probably not right. It all comes out of wash, right? So, yeah. All right, hey, uh quick question next. Uh, we got a couple more, and then we'll get in our little two-minute drill. Just curious on this, we may start asking a lot of our guests this question how have you used AI to benefit your leadership?

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Man, that that question came out of left field. I like it. That's good. Um, how I've used AI, I think like the there man, it's a slippery slope, right? Because it's so accessible, so fast, and so instant. And I think like the couple ways that I've dabbled again, I've I haven't used it a ton ton, but the couple ways that I have used it just to gain clarity for myself is sometimes when I'm preparing for, you know, I'm doing I've done coach clinics, I've spoken a lot of different things, and and I want to make sure my message is really clear for the audience. So, like I'll go and do my my standard preparation process of my slides and my my things I want to hit on. What I've leaned on AI to do for me is to like generate really specific examples that can connect with the specific audience that I'm that I'm about to go present to. So, like I'll give you an example. So this weekend, actually, I'm doing a couple little league clinics. And what I what I'm what I'm gonna be talking about again, I don't want to give you the whole thing, but like what I am talking about is different like in-game in-game coaching strategies that directly impacts mindset is kind of like the overarching term or overarching theme. So when I built out the idea and kind of like conceptualized how I want to go, I went into Chat GPT and go, like, can I generate examples of effective and ineffective in-game coaching strategies and prompt the AI to give me like really specific, like little league relevant, um, age appropriate examples. And to me, that's the best way to use it. If you're really, if you're if you do the prep work on your own part, the conversation, quote unquote, with AI is gonna be enhanced, right? It's not just like allowing it to do everything for you. It just might, at least for me, it gives me clarity of like, oh, I didn't even think about that example, but man, like that's gonna land really well with this group because I've prompted it very specifically. I know exactly where I want to go. And sometimes I just need like the color, so to speak, to like fill in the blank. Um, and that's been really helpful. Um, on a side note, like like you mentioned, I do speak Spanish, but sometimes I use Chat GPT to like make sure a translation is super clear into a different language. Like that's also a really beneficial use of it. Um, we started as an organization, we actually have a couple kids from Taiwan who we don't have anyone that speaks Mandarin in the building. And we've set up a way where we'll be delivering like a presentation to the group. We'll set up a Google Meet and utilize an AI bot. And I can't remember the exact software, but it takes in the information in English, translates it to Mandarin on the computer so they can be watching, listening, but here seeing the words show up in Mandarin like unbelievable use of AI. Like I never even thought that was possible, and I just think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Um, those players feel belonging, right? I mean that's that's what it's all about is feel belonging within a team, and that's another way. That's great. That's a great example. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

So again, I've I've used it here and there, and I think the majority of the use, at least on my part, is if I want to gain if I want to just have gain clarity of like a concept, or I've I've already done a lot again. I I always I only use it if I've done something ahead of time. I never let it do it for me. Yeah, um, because I do think that like it, I I I try to ask for very specific things, if that makes sense, not just like leave it open-ended. Um, like examples, like you know, how to paint a better picture. Um, you know, perhaps even activities. And I'm like, you know what? I'm hitting it, I'm stuck. Like, how do I bring this concept to life? And you can you can spark different conversations that way. So I think to me, that's the best way I've used it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Yeah, that's a great example. Same thing. This next question. I mean, we do it with our questions, right? We'll we'll type our questions and put them in our own words and minds. It may not make sense, but throw it in and let it polish it up. Just, hey, polish this question for me. It's my question, polish it up. So uh last question for you before we uh do a two-minute drill. One of your colleagues, Carl Cokin, I think is how you say his name. Uh, he's now the mental performance coach for the St. Louis Cardinals. He said that baseball is a person-to-person industry. I'd argue the same is true in athletic administration. He went on to emphasize that making sure that we have that human connection should be priority number one in what we do. From your perspective as a leader, how do you intentionally build and sustain those human connections? And you mentioned it already a little bit with presence, but you can expand there. What does that actually look like in your day-to-day work?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

Yeah, um, that's that's so good. Like it really is, it's a person-to-person thing. And what that looks like for me, at least I what I try to commit to is asking more, talking less, listening more, and just being able to like exist as a as a person in the space. I mean, the nuanced, the nuanced environment of professional baseball is we spend more time with our colleagues than we do our families. And so there's no way around it. And if you don't, if you don't build a meaningful relationship with the players or the coaches that you're around all year long, like it's gonna be a long year and it's not very productive. So I'm really, really hyper aware of just like spending time as much time as I can with different people, um, knowing their story, knowing more than what's on the back of their baseball card, understanding them as a person, and like, you know, get to know like, you know, who's their significant other is. Do they have, you know, what other siblings do? Um, and and really like just man, just trying to trying to get them, get to know them as just a human and not a coach or not just a front office person, not just a player. And how how I try to do that is, you know, I try to set up different different things outside of the game, like trying to play golf with some with with the coaches, or you know, watch the watch the the football game that happens to be on that night, or you know, just do anything to spend as much time as I can with them because ultimately um what that's gonna do is when the time comes and the and the timing is right, I'm gonna be able to have that established relationship to really have a meaningful, like mental performance, mental skills related conversation. And sure, I can have it without having some of those initial interactions, but man, it makes it a whole lot easier to be able to get down in the weeds, or I mean, sometimes even have more difficult conversations where I'm holding someone accountable or like challenging them in some capacity. I have to be able to have that connection first. Um otherwise it's gonna fall on deaf ears, or it's just not gonna like it's not gonna resonate as as strong as I would want it to. Um because there are there are times where, you know, a player tells me he's gonna do something and he doesn't. And I have to go, I have to kind of be a firm voice in his ear and go, like, you know what, like we Worked on this, you know, you're better for this. You need to you need to articulate to me why you didn't do this, you know better. And I have to do that sometimes, and to be able to take on that type of tone to hold them accountable in that type of way, in a in a very like genuine, heartfelt way. Like that's coming straight from the heart. It's not me trying to get on them because of what it makes it makes it like look for me. Like that doesn't matter. Like I said, it's all about the player, and sometimes they need that. And in order to be effective in those particular moments, I have to be able to have that connection with players, to be able to call them out, to be able to hold them accountable, to push them, to challenge them, to honestly call them on their BS. Like I I can I'm sure you can only imagine, but like you know, 20, 21, 22-year-old young minor league players with with a large number in their bank account can have some ego sometimes. And sometimes they need to be like like told that they're not good, they're not they're not good enough right now. Like they need to be better. And sometimes I have to deliver it in a very like older brother way. Sometimes I have to be a little bit more stern, and sometimes I have to talk to them straight. Um, and it just understanding the person allows me to have the context to know how to deliver that message effectively, but also it increases the chances of that message actually landing in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

That's good, really good. Well, Kellen, this has been phenomenal, man. You've given us so much to digest and can't wait to listen to it multiple times and just hear all the stuff that you've uh given us to apply to uh how we coach kids through mental performance, how we accept it and and make it a part of what we do. So thanks for uh all the all the tidbits and and uh very very good wisdom there. So hey, we're gonna jump into our two-minute drill. We just a little short questions here to get to know you a little bit and have a little fun. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:00

All right, Kellen. We're gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. You just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind. What was the first job you ever had ever in your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

I was a grocery store bagger at Albertson's.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:12

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

All right, biggest mental mistake you see athletes make allowing the fear of the future to impact their focus in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

Confidence or consistency? Which one matters more?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

I'm gonna say confidence because it confidence allow is it allows you to be more consistent um over long periods of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:40

Middle toughness. Is it born or is it built? It's built 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:46

Good deal. All right, let's play a game of hot or not. So these are hot take questions. So uh if you agree with it, you say hot. If you don't agree with it, you say not. Visualization is overrated.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:59

Not hot or not. Calling it the mountain instead of rainier is uh more appropriate. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

I'm gonna say I'm gonna cop out and say unsure because I am not, I don't spend enough time in Seattle to know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

That probably hurts his next question. Flannel can be worn as formal wear.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:22

No, not that no. That's a hard sorry. That's if I agree with it, yes, not formal wear. Not no.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

All right, uh, hunter nut. Dogs should be allowed everywhere, restaurants, offices, etc. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

Like, yes, hot, yes, yes, yes, yes. Big dog guy, big dog guy. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

That's good. All right, so we're asking all of our guests uh to uh help us with uh the Brett Ledbetter's 365 questions. I don't know if you've seen this or heard of this. Pick a number between one and 365.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

Ooh, um, let's go 225.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:03

All right. Think about your worst moment as a human. What if it went viral online? How do you think that would impact your worldview?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

Holy cow. Oh man. My how it impact my worldview? Um I I don't I don't know. I don't think like I don't think it would impact my worldview so much as it would have impact like gosh, that is that's a really why did I choose that number?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:38

Um don't don't worry, it wouldn't have mattered. They're all like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

So it's they're I they're all I yeah, no, I don't I don't think it would like one singular moment would have impacted my worldview. Um because I like and the reason I say that is because when I reflect back over my my the last you know 20 years of my life, my worldview has significantly changed, but it was like a slow process of how that happened. Like I don't know if one moment would change it that significantly, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

Yep, that's good, yeah, yeah, real good. Alright, one word you wish athletes would stop using about themselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

Um one word. Hmm. I'm gonna think about this one. One word that I would want them to stop using about themselves. Um it's two words, but sped up.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:36

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

And the reason why is they a lot of times they use that term to say like the game is speeding up on them. But in reality, what they're actually saying is the speed that their thoughts are coming to them is faster because the game itself doesn't speed up, but the speed that our thoughts come to us make us feel like the game is faster, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:00

That's really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Okay, let's finish with this. Uh, it's our trademark question today, Kellen Lee. You've been hanging with the ADs, but let's say you can hang out with anyone, who would that be a why?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

Uh I'd hang out with my wife because she is the best person on the planet, and there's never a dull moment with us. And you know, we whether we're talking about sports or we're talking about, you know, our the random TV shows we're watching, like there's no one better than to hang out with my wife.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:30

Good answer. Kellen, thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your expertise uh in an area that we really should all pay more attention to. It is uh a very exciting time in Seattle uh for a lot of different reasons. Uh and I hope your bosses get a chance to listen to this because they've improved in the division every year since you've been with them. So I ain't saying, I'm just saying. Uh so we uh we we appreciate the time. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:54

I appreciate it, guys. Really, really enjoyed the conversation. Honored to join you. And uh yeah, I just uh really, really happy to be a part of this. And I'm hoping the the listeners can take away some really good nuggets and you know start just thinking about mental performance in a different way, or you know, perhaps you never even heard of it before and now you know a little bit more about it. So honored to be that that voice for who you know, all the listeners out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

What a great conversation with Kellen Lee, mental performance coach for the Seattle Mariners. Hey, don't forget he is a coach, not a trainer, not a doctor, not a mental health um expert, mental performance coach. And I thought that's what I took from this, not because we made light of him uh being in uniform or not, but because coaching is what we do in our profession. And a lot of times, and we had this conversation, right? A lot of times we leave out the middle part of it. Kellen gave us so many tips and nuggets and contacts and resources to go find help when we are trying to coach the middle game of the different games that we coach. So I just want to recommend that you follow up on some of the resources Kellen threw out there. Uh maybe go and research Kellen and what he's done and some of the places he has spoken and just how he is able to connect with every athlete and their mental performance in whatever sport or genre they're put they're they're in. He talked about the military, that was uh really fascinating. So hopefully you can find someone in your area that could be a Kellen Lee for you and your program and your team. Uh look for that certified mental performance coach. Kellen gave us that information of where to go find it, and that was outstanding. What a great conversation. We got off this call, and I'm just looking at my notes, and I'm really overwhelmed by what all he said. So can't wait to listen to this one multiple times. So thanks, Kellen, for joining us, making us better today uh on a on a side of athletics and leadership that sometimes we do not think about. Uh what a great conversation. So uh we appreciate you hanging in there and listening to us before you click to another podcast. We'd love it if you'd leave us a star rating. Let us know what you think about this podcast. We'd love to know your thoughts if you want to interact with us. Leave us some comments in the review. And as always, we thank you for spending your time hanging with the 80s, yes.