SPEAKER_00 0:04

You're listening to the Hanging with the AD podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and lessons learned through leadership. Now, here are your hosts, Josh Matthews and Don Baker.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

Welcome to episode 142 of the Hanging with the AD Podcast, where we explore the intersection of leadership, athletics, and education through the voices of those making a real difference in the lives of our student athletes. Today's episode brings a fresh perspective to the show, one from the whistle's point of view. We're joined by Marcus Woods, a highly respected official at both the high school and collegiate levels. Marcus has worked some of the biggest games in the country, including a recent college football national championship. And he's earned a reputation for professionalism, consistency, and a deep understanding of what makes great officiating. In this conversation, we dive into what makes officiating fun, what makes it challenging, and what athletic directors and coaches can do to create a better experience for officials. Marcus also shares what defines a great official, how top officials handle miscalls, and why officiating might be the perfect next step for former athletes, coaches, or anyone looking to stay involved in the game. And for our coaches and ADs, Marcus offers powerful insight on what makes a coach great from the officials' perspective and how leadership shows up on the sidelines. Whether you're looking to better support your officials, recruit new ones, or simply understand the game from a different angle, this episode delivers. Let's settle in and get to know veteran official, Marcus Woods.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

Marcus, we're so glad to have you joined Don and me for this episode of Hanging with the AD. This is going to be another great episode to learn from an official about officiating and how we can get better in that area. So thanks for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

Yeah, so for our listeners, Marcus Woods is a fantastic professional official at the high school and college ranks there. He has officiated some big games at both levels, including a recent college football national championship game. So he knows what he's doing. Marcus has refereed many of our Pope basketball games over the years, and I can test uh attest to he is one of the most professional officials I have come across. I'm not trying to say that to get a neck a call at the next game, but he is a pro at what he does. And uh we don't we don't get to talk to too many officials. So Marcus is going to help us out there. He clearly understands the why and the how of being a great official. So uh looking forward to today. We'll stop right there and let him tell us a little bit more about his journey uh in leadership and athletics. Marcus, we call it the back of the baseball card bio. So take a minute, tell us what the back of Mr. Marcus Woods baseball card would look like.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Um first and foremost, thank you, uh Josh and Don for having me on. I appreciate this opportunity and truly honored to just be part of anything that can hopefully shine light on the relationship between officials and coaches and players or any anything of that matter, because uh without any of those pieces, the the sport which is designed to develop young men and women into um, I guess, professionals and and people who contribute to this world, is that we're all needed to do that. And if we're all on the same page, I think that process works a lot better. Um so a little bit about myself. Um moved here to Atlanta, Georgia, started working for Coke, worked for Coke for 21 or so years, then uh along that journey at some point was coaching youth basketball and was spending a lot of time in the gym, and one day just happened to watch somebody teaching someone how to officiate basketball. And it kind of piqued my interest a little bit later, a couple weeks later, I'm sitting in the stands watching my daughter share the football game. A guy sits down beside me, has on a uniform, and we start talking. He tells me, hey, it's too late to do football, but if you're interested in doing basketball, here's some information. So signed up with a local group, Atlanta um, Atlanta Area Basketball Officials Association back in 2006, and started officiating basketball at that point. So a lot of guys in basketball said, well, hey, if you like basketball, you're gonna love officiating football. You should try it. And the next year, 2007, started officiating uh football with the Atlanta Area Football Officials Association. For some reason, just had this uh affinity for it, kind of really dug into it, and as time progressed, I was fortunate enough to work a state championship uh in 2013 in football. Uh basketball, I've made it to the semifinals in officiating. I started officiating college football around 2011 in the SIEC, uh Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. Uh spent a couple years there, then got moved to the position of referee, which was kind of a shock to me because I I didn't ever see that as being a position I would work until late, late in life. But it actually kind of helped me out, kind of accelerated my career. Um next, I worked in the uh MIAC, Mid Eastern Athletic Conference. There I worked um line of scrimmage for a little bit, then got moved to referee. And then from there I started uh working the position of center judge each time I moved up to eventually become a referee. So I spent a couple of years in the American Athletic Conference and then in 2017 got hired by the Atlantic Coast Conference and spent two years there as center judge, and then um after that moved over to referee. And as you had mentioned, was fortunate enough to work the 2024 uh college playoff national championship.

SPEAKER_05 6:30

Yeah, uh that's that's awesome. I know we talked about that a little bit. I love the logistics and planning of how you had to get into that. We won't get into it today, but uh really uh just gave us a gave me a different perspective of how y'all as officials prepare and and and do your job. And we may get into some of that, but uh yeah, that's uh a really cool event. So a great job. And and people can see just through your career, you know, officials, it's a professional organiz a professional career. You just don't walk in and walk off the street and go to the highest level. You have to earn your way up there, just like Major League Baseball or whatever sport it is as athletes, same with coaching, right? So you have to work in there. So Marcus, let's jump into that officiating. What makes high school athletics fun? And then as far as officiating it, and what about collegiate athletics? Is it the same kind of uh uh um energy and and same things that make it fun for you to do?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So so I'll say that um I'll start with high school athletics. So when you first just get into officiating, so anybody who ever says, hey, they have any kind of interest in officiating, and generally we we come with no experience, right? We we have no idea, we're trying to learn about it. And then someone says, Well, hey, I want to officiate basketball, football, baseball, whatever the sport is, what I tell them is join a high school association so that they will teach you how to do it correctly, and then try to go find a rec association so that you can practice all that. Um, because a lot of times in high school, until you get your chops in a couple of years behind you, they're not gonna put you in the most competitive situations or you may not get enough games because without it's just like anything, practice makes. Practice is everything, and you got to practice perfect to me to make perfect. So you got to be taught how to do it right. High school associations do a great job of that. Mechanics and rule books and learning the rules and and game management, which is also a part of how do you talk to coaches, how do you diffuse situations. But you need to find a place where you can do that over and over again. And that's where the Rec association and leagues kind of help with that. Um, when you get into high school officiating, to me, I still have a lot of my friends, or I say best friends or really good friends. Today came from my high school officiating association. Part of it is because we end up spending a lot of time together. Um you have generally meetings on Mondays. Those meetings are to teach you about rules, mechanics, how to officiate, how to manage games, stuff like that. Um I'm using football as an example. Thursdays, well, it may even be more now because uh we have so much uh football to be played or sports to be played, and not nearly enough officials. But it used to be on Thursday we do a JV or middle school game. Friday, you do a varsity game. You're learning or young, you may be on the chains and on the clock. And then Saturday we we had a middle school program, which was great. At a minimum, I worked three games with some veterans, and I they would be teaching me and giving me feedback that I could turn around and immediately apply because I have a game right behind it. So in those high school groups, I got to spend a lot of time with those people, and we had a great time. And then the most exciting thing was a Friday night to get in a car with seven to eight people and have to drive an hour or two to go do a game. Well, that's when you built a lot of camaraderie and a lot of friendships that, like you say, last forever. As it trans uh moves over to college sports, then the road trips could be longer. So where in high school I may be an hour or 45 minutes or an hour and a half to go somewhere with a group and we go do a game. Well, now those road trips may be three, four hours. Um, and we spend the whole weekend. We leave on a Friday, we come back on a Sunday. So you're talking about some lifelong bonds. Uh every Friday you're jumping in a car with some guys in your area and you headed out to a game, and you're learning about their family, your family, you're laughing, and you go through challenges and all that stuff. So the time that we spend together and knowing that, hey, a lot of times we're we're the only people who have our own backs. Because when we go in there, there's there's three teams playing, right? There's home team, visiting team, and then there's officiating team. Well, the only people that may actually have any concern to take care of you may be those those uh people who are sitting in that car with you or sitting in that locker room getting ready for a game. So so we end up building some really strong bonds because we kind of all can relate and understand when we have good games, bad games, good plays, bad plays. We all know how it feels.

SPEAKER_05 11:43

So yeah, I want to get in, we're gonna get into that a little bit about the good plays, bad plays, and how y'all deal with it. We'll get into that in a few minutes in in a good way. But uh let me ask you this on the other side of that coin, is there anything that causes you pause when you're shooting up for a new year as a football or basketball official? So so obviously you love it, we can tell that, but what may be the lesser parts of the role?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Uh the lesser parts are one is you you're gonna because we do spend a lot of time away, you're spending time away from your family. So that can be a challenge, uh, especially depending upon where you are in your family uh life cycle. If you're leaving your wife there with two young kids at the house, then that's a challenge because she feels, well, hey, I I need you here taking care of the kids and helping me with the kids. But also she knows and she wants to support you in pursuing one, I think it's necessary, but two is could be a passion or could be something that hey is beneficial to the the household monetarily. So so that can be a down, which is hey, I have to spend so much time away to be able to do this uh allocation. Um the rest of it really don't see a whole bunch of negative because again, I think if you're into it and you enjoy it, you kind of look forward to it. Like we're getting ramped up for spring football season right now, um, and we're winding down high school basketball. Well, it's kind of invigorating to start back into this uh different sport, so crack open the rule book, start seeing plays, um, to go out to a couple scrimmages. I really don't see a whole bunch of negative other than just having to be away.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

That's uh that's a great attitude to have uh on in a job that that can be very difficult. Uh and it has become more and more difficult uh with a lot of stuff that you guys have to deal with. Now, let's talk to ADs for for a moment. I can remember uh as a football coach going to a game. Uh I was up in North Carolina, and we got to the game and we're unloading the truck, and we go into the the home team's field house, and right we walk in the door, the entire officiating team is sitting in the field house having the best barbecue that I have ever seen in my life. Okay, I mean it was a full spread, and I left out of there. I went over there because we needed something, and I go to leave, and I told another coach, I said, Man, we are in trouble. They they are in there, they got them spread out like a hot lunch in there. This that's the best pregame meal I have ever seen. Now, at the end of the day, that ended up being a wonderfully officiated game. Those guys did a great job. But I say all that to say this: what can we do to give officials a great experience from the time you arrive until the time you leave? What have you seen that makes you feel valued? And maybe without calling names, just what are some things that made you feel valued, and maybe some things that uh you you need to avoid in the actual welcoming of officials during the game, not just before and during, but more importantly, probably after the game.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, I I'm gonna I'm gonna start off by throwing back a compliment, which is to Josh and his team. They they do a fantastic job over it, and I I've done football and basketball on all different levels, from the middle school program to the high school program to basketball and football. And what I believe is first and foremost is separate quarters for the officials. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, it doesn't have to be anything huge or elaborate, but it just needs a space for those officials to be able to get together and uh confidently, openly talk about any issues, anything, any prep that needs to happen for that game without the fear of someone on the other side of the wall hearing what they're talking about or being interrupted or people coming in in that space. That space should be specifically designed for them to be able to get in and get dressed and get prepared and get their mind off the world and get it onto that game. So uh I think first and foremost, that is the most important thing. Give them a space that they can get dressed um and be private so that they don't have uh interruptions or fear of someone hearing something that they want to talk about in regards to that game, prepping for that game. Um then on top of that, then the bonuses is I think at a minimum you should have water available to them. Um nobody says you have to have power aid or any of that stuff, but at a minimum you're you're doing a basketball game, you're doing every game, baseball, something, and it's extremely hot, then they need to be hydrated because as players need to be hydrated, so do the officials. We don't want people to um to deal with dehydration. The bonuses is hey, if you you put some snacks in there for them, say a meal, you think about it, um a lot of them are coming straight from work. And in Atlanta, traffic is a problem. So they may not have the luxury of grabbing something to eat and and be on time, which being on time is most important to me, and having to skip that. So if there is something for them to eat, that's just a big bonus. Uh not required by any stretch of imagination, but it it does help just for the simple fact. If you think about it, uh varsity games go from six to nine, nine-ish on a basketball night. And if they haven't eaten at all, that's kind of tough. So a chick-lay sandwich or whatever, they'd be most appreciative. Or even a hot dog on a concession head, it doesn't matter, it's just something bad so that they can get substance in their body. Uh as far as bad, bad is usually you're stuck in the coach's office, he doesn't want you in there anyway, and there's a rotation of people coming in and out having to get stuck. It's just not it it puts and sometimes it's students, so it puts the a grown official at risk of something happening, not that they would do it, but why put them in a situation where they even have to consider? Um, so we don't want to be in any scenario where students have to come through there. Um, and then two is generally we really don't like being in coaches' space because it feels like we're invading their space, so we're sort of uncomfortable and they uh you may have people coming in and out. So I think that would be the bad. And then no water at all is bad. I would agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:49

Yeah, that's good. So um I appreciate the compliment. Thank you for that. Uh you didn't have to say that, but uh yeah, the I just I was writing down a note that I think we can add something next year for basketball. That uh when you talked about adding I think sometimes we'll do a snack, uh, but when you say that, hey, they haven't had dinner, maybe we need to throw some pizza or something in there, uh, more than just some cracker. So uh yeah, I I made note of that. Wanna try to get better if we can. Um so you so you've worked with many other officials. Obviously, you've been doing it for a long time, as you mentioned. Uh as fans and coaches, most of the time we expect every official to get every call right. You know, and you hear that, right? Yeah, yeah. You all have the same expectation, right? Uh I will have to say, after review, and I know you get that at the college level, we don't have it at the general high school level, the state championship game does now, but after review, most calls are correct, or at least ones I see. I don't know what the stats are at the college level, but but perfection is really unrealistic. And I that may be an oxymoron there, but it's really unrealistic in anything, right? Knowing that, what makes a great official? What should we watch for and be able to at the end of the contest say he or she had a great night officiating the game?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, so so I think one of the things that people have said is that we're the only people who when we show up, we're expect it to be 100% and then get better from there. So that's the way it's been told. So uh as for percentages, I think the the stats say we're high 90s, like high 90 percentage of getting things right, even with um instant replay reviews and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_05 20:40

I hear, I'll tell you this, Marcus. I'll interrupt, sorry. There's no coach in high school football or college football that wants their play calling scrutinized the way your officiating is scrutinized because it ain't gonna be 90% right. Uh that would be a great study to compare how many plays are right versus how many calls are right. And I bet y'all are gonna be way, way, way above the coaches for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, and and that's the unfortunate thing. A lot of times we think it, but we can't say it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:09

I heard the other day about coaches yelling at officials, and an official needs to turn around and say, Hey, I think you made a bad call, coach. That that shut that up a hard. We probably should allow that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

But yeah, you're right. So so we I think overall we we do a pretty good job. And then I think from if the higher levels, the difference today is that everything is in high def, everything is can be slowed down, and we get one shot at it, and and we give the best shot at it that we can. Um for me, I can I can remember the day that my officiating career kind of turned around, and it was because of Ed Hockley. And Ed Hockley had a play several years back where he made a mistake in a I think it was San Diego or somebody. And he ruled past home. He's he he was wrong. And he got he got all the things that will come with downgrades, which he didn't get postseason that year, all that stuff. But the next year he came back. One, he admitted it. He he expressed what happened. He realized that hey, where he was standing, he couldn't see the play properly. And a lot of times when we make a mistake, it's because we're guessing at something. There's usually a breakdown in mechanics. It's not a breakdown in knowledge. Sometimes it may be guts, but ultimately, usually, if we have bad mechanics, that means we're not in a position to properly rule, then at best we're guessing. And a lot of times when we guess, we guess wrong. So that experience was before it when I was making mistakes in games, and you're I'm a young official trying to figure this thing out. And basketball, it would take me two to three days to get over making mistakes. And I and it would it would just eat at me. Why did I make mistakes? I wish I had made a different call, wish I'd done something different. And I couldn't figure out why it just stuck with me for so long. And then when I saw him go through what he went through, and I always thought he was one of the best in the world. I said, well, if he can make a mistake, then why can't I? And once I realized that, hey, we're gonna make mistakes, it made my life better. And it made my officiating better because it it let me get out there and stop second-guessing decisions. It's that, hey, all the prep and all the training is what's supposed to design you for the day of the game. If you think about how you teach players to play, all the coaching is to get them to get on the field and play freely without thinking. And that they let their instincts and their uh subconscious drive. It means they play faster, they play better, and if they trust their coaching and their instincts, they usually are gonna be in the right place most of the time. Will they make a mistake? Of course. But more often than not, they're gonna be in the right place to make the play. We do the same thing. We we do a lot of film study, we talk about rules, we talk about plays and all those things. And if you can get out of thinking and get to just officiating, which is make your decisions, you're gonna be a lot better as an official. And there's gonna be generally one or two plays almost every game that you wish you had either slowed down and held your wisdom a little bit longer, or you wish you had another crack at it because you know you do something different. But you just have to accept those things, and then what happens is that conversation has to go back to the coach, which is sometimes sometimes we don't know whether we make we got it right or wrong. We just, hey, we went with what we thought. So all we can do is explain to them, hey, this is what I saw, coach. If it's different than what you saw, then I missed it. Sometimes we know we missed it, and then you if if you're in the situation and you're gonna be um be proper about it, you explain to coach, hey coach, yeah, I thought I saw this, but I missed that play. And most coaches will understand that. Um, they may not agree with you right then and there, they may give you an ear pull, but the reality is if you know you missed it, then you probably should let them know. Um, hey, I missed that. But you can't do that over and over again. Our job is to get it right. Best we can.

SPEAKER_05 25:36

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, and you kind of alluded to what I was gonna follow up with earlier about no one's perfect, and you just said, hey, you you you miss it, you admit to it, and go on there. And and y'all do study film. But I I've walked off the court with y'all at halftime or at the end of a game, had our other coaches escorting you out, and we hear conversations where y'all are talking about with each other. Hey, what did you see there? This is what I saw. I'm not sure. Just just some of the same things you just talked about. Y'all aren't walking off after the game saying, oh, well, uh, you know, that game's over. I might have missed one, but it it's it is what it is. I'm the official, you know, they they got to get over it. Y'all, y'all take that stuff home with you, too. So, how how do you work together? How do you deal with that like at halftime? Hey, hey, sir, uh, you know, my partner, I I I saw something different. How do y'all talk through that, maintain good uh uh teamwork, come back out in good positive spirits for the second half? How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, so so I I'll say is if if the official has the right mindset, then you should be open to feedback and I'm gonna say constructive criticism, but there's differences of opinion for the simple fact that all angles that will be seen and the game is in perpetual motion, is that what I see could be a little bit different than what my other two partners see, just for the simple fact that they got different angles to look at it, right? So those conversations that you're talking about, hey, what did you see? Those could happen at the first time out. We may get together real quick and say, Hey, I had that drive to the basket, what did you see? And then they'll explain what they saw and say, Well, yeah, I saw this, I probably should have had a whistle on that. Um, so if it comes up again, which it'll never come up 100% the same way, but over time things start repeating themselves, or players and how they play and things that we are looking for out there start to manifest themselves, is that we'll be prepared. And then also hopefully someone may say, Well, hey, because of the angle and where you were, maybe I could have helped on that. So, so we'll we'll ask for help, or hey, um, I'll I'll learn something, or they'll learn something from it. Second part is at halftime, we literally just go around the room. Hey, what are you seeing in this game? What what do we need to do better? What are we what are we doing well? And so we'll go around and talk about the things that we're doing well, things that we need to improve on, things we need to tighten up on, things that maybe we need to loosen up on. Um, so that it's just like a team has to go in for a halftime adjustment. There's times we may have to go in for a halftime adjustment. And then post-game, you're right. We'll just do the same thing. Hey, how do we feel? What do we think? Do we need to call um our signer or our um coordinator and let them know, hey, they're gonna get a phone call probably in the next 30 minutes to give them a heads up if something just did not go well so that they're not blindsided and they're they're prepared to have a discussion about it. But and then if the last part of it is we go back and break down the film, you go look at the film, the film does a couple things. One, it reaffirms either what you thought you saw or it or it counter there's counter to it. It says, Well, hey, and it generally what happens is you start realizing that hey, what you thought you saw is actually what you did see, and the film gives you confidence to start being free or or being a little more uh confident and making calls because you're like, hey, I'm trusting what my my eyes and my mind are telling me. Go ahead and pull the trigger and do it, do what you got to do. You are seeing what you're supposed to see.

SPEAKER_05 29:43

Yeah, that's really good. I I was gonna say, ask I I you you talked about the timeout there and getting together timeout. Does that happen football, based basketball, is that happening every time? Are y'all are y'all continuously having these conversations throughout the game? Y'all, y'all aren't getting together and saying, Man, that guy on the third row yelling at he's an idiot, you know. I wonder why he wore that, that. I mean, y'all, y'all are doing the same thing those coaches and players are doing almost every timeout, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

It depends. So, in in basketball, not as much because we want we don't want to give the appearance that we're we're questioning everything we've done. So sometimes in timeouts we have places where we go stand, which is kind of, I guess, our mechanics. And if we're good and everything is going the way we think we should, then we'll just go take those positions. If there's something we need to talk about real quickly, you may see somebody walk over and have a quick conversation. Um, and sometimes it is that guy in the third row is is is getting on those get the AD, right?

SPEAKER_05 30:55

Go get the AD.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

But but reality is that it's only when we need to. Like we had something that was tough, tough play, tough situation, or we're heading in a direction that we need to change that direction quickly. Um, say for instance, we got a coach who's a little exuberant. Well, we may come up with a plan of action. Hey, we we don't want to put a technical foul on him, but we need we may need to warn him. So next time he does that and comes out the box yelling, then hey, we'll just stop the game. Hey, put a warning in the book. That may be just enough to take us in the direction that we want to go, which is back to playing basketball and focusing on the kids.

SPEAKER_05 31:37

How how often are you how often are you patent patent your partner on the back? Hey, man, that was a tough call. You got it right. You know, are y'all doing that throughout the game?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

We we can do that too. And then generally that's usually a younger official that's on the crew, and that could be football, basketball, whatever. Um, it's that, hey, you just had a tough situation, but you manage it well, hey, great call. Or you give them that look and give them the nod and the and the smile to say, hey, keep keep doing what you're doing. Because sometimes it's a confidence booster to kind of keep them in the game because there's nothing worse than someone have a tough play and then all of a sudden they check out, and now you're officiating a three-man game with two people. That's tough. Or you got eight people on the field, and now we lost one. So we do do things to make sure we're we're getting a pulse of our crew members, and if they're doing well, hey, yeah, hey, great play, good hustle, whatever it is, good spots. But if they had a tough play, is that hey, sometimes you may have to pick them up. You got and then me as a crew chief, that's one of my jobs is to identify where my crew is. And if I need to pick someone up, figure out what it is that picks them up.

SPEAKER_04 32:48

That's really that's really good. And that has to happen super fast, right? I mean, you guys, it's like the waves of the ocean, like that action is steady coming. So to be able to uh to step in in a in a moment and kind of reassure someone because here's the deal, man, we got time to think about it now. We got you know, they're coming back down the court. Like we've got we we've got to keep moving. Uh so I think that that's uh I think that that's great, uh, that's great advice. Now, maybe talk to people that are interested in getting into officiating. Okay. Maybe this information gets to a retiring coach, an alumni parent. Maybe it's just a kid that wants to earn some money on the weekends. I know that my daughter, she's expressed an interest in getting into soccer officiating. She plays soccer. Uh, and her and I had a conversation because I was like, we've talked about it on here before, the dream's the journey, right? You get it all. So you just you need to know that you're gonna have some grown adults that are gonna yell at you and you need to be okay with that. Um what should um I guess anyone that's signing up to be an official, okay, what should they expect when they when they sign up to do this? And then at the same time, what are the standards that they need to have for themselves when taking on the role of officiate?

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Okay, uh great, great question. Um, one is we there's a shortage today, and part of it is because of the challenges of dealing with fan behavior, parents, stuff like that at the lower lower levels. It tends to be a little less of issues when schools are tied in because there's a string of accountability. Not that it's not there, but it just doesn't seem to be as as prominent when you go into the youth sports, the rec sports. And the unfortunate part is to get better, you really, really, really need, especially to get better faster, you really need to work. I call it the wow, wow, west. You need to work those leagues because that's how you get your chops. But also it's gonna teach you a lot. Um what we try to do is we're trying to reach out and and start getting the athletes as they start finishing up high school sports. It's like anything. The percentages of the ones that's gonna move on and play college is very, very small. And the ones that's going from college to NFL is extremely small. And so those get those players know their sports ins and out. At least they think they do. Because a lot of times when we get people to come to fish and they say, Well, hey, I coach and I play, so I know it. Well, it's a little bit different. So we're gonna take you through uh a training process and expose you to officiating, which you're gonna learn that you really don't know as much as you thought you did, but all those things that you do know are only gonna help you in the officiate world. So we try to get them early as graduating high school because it's a fantastic job to have in college because you can control when you work, when you don't work. You're gonna make more money per hour than any job that you can get out there, period. Um, and it helps you stay in shape. If that's one of the things you want to do, you get paid for uh running up and down a quarter, running up down a field, or on prime baseball, whatever it is. It's it's it's an easy way to make money. I'm gonna say I'm not gonna say easy, it's easier than having to work retail or work at a fast food joint where you're you're gonna make half the money at that per hour. You just it's a good way if you get into it. And you can control it. When you need to study, you study. When you want to work, you work as much as you want. Um, what do they ex should they expect? Or what what they first need to understand about themselves. They need to first understand it's not a world that people are gonna make you feel good about yourself. You have to already feel good about yourself. Um and it's it's a world of critique, and um for people to really get you better, they're not gonna tell you what you're doing well, they're gonna have to tell you the things you need to improve upon. Athletes are used to that, being coached hard, right? Hey, one simple little half step makes all the difference in the beginning of a play. Um setting your screens and coming off the pick, um half a foot like six inches could make a big difference whether it's a player control or not. Same thing in officiating, people are gonna find the little nitpicky things to help you get better, but if you can understand they're not picking on you as a person, they're just trying to help you develop. If you have that attitude and spirit about yourself that, hey, that doesn't bother you, and you're not you're a non-confrontational person, you don't get upset quickly, then it's a perfect advocation for you. And all we're gonna do is is really bring you in. If we find out you have a passion about something that I have a passion about, it's almost a natural relationship that would be built. And and we want to share as much information and knowledge as possible as somebody wants to receive. Um, so you you'll be you'll meet some friends, you'll you'll you'll have some mentors, and they'll try to teach you as much as they can about officiating. And generally, as as much effort as somebody puts in is what you get out of.

SPEAKER_05 38:34

Yeah, that's good. Man, that's really good right there. Good good advice. And uh hopefully we can get some of our athletes in the in this world for sure to keep it going. Um now, Marcus, we talked about mostly coaches and ADs are listening to this podcast. So two different perspectives there, but you have a perspective that we do not take into account a lot of times when we are either searching for a new coach as the athletic director, or as the coach when we're trying to approve ourselves as a coach. So you have that perspective of an official, right? Then that's what we talked about the whole time here. Um so the question here is what makes a coach great from your perspective? If if you're an athletic administrator with your officiating background, what would you be looking for if you were hiring a head coach in one of these sports that you officiate?

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Um, I think I love that question.

SPEAKER_05 39:29

Don't answer it too good. You might take my job. So I can't take yours. I'm nowhere near what you do.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah. I'm just kidding. I honestly think the number one thing that um if I was an AD looking for a coach, is is they have to understand that winning and losing will take care of itself if you do the right things about teaching and coaching the athlete. That's good. Right. So so they have they have to be the athlete is number one. And and even bigger than that, probably the student athlete is number one. And student being the first word, and then athlete being second, is that again, most of us who've played sports are never gonna make it to the top. It's just the numbers are against it. However, there's been plenty who have made it to the top in other industries because of um playing sports and then also making sure we took care of our grades so that we could play sports and building relationships, learning to win and lose, all that stuff. The the problem I see sometime in athletic in athletics is they focus too much on winning and not teaching and developing. And that so that's one thing. Two is I think you mentioned it early, but I I've heard this at times, is that if things are not going their way, all of a sudden the coach decides to put it on the officials. Now, we may have made mistakes, no doubt about it. But usually if if we're screwing something up or somebody on that crew is not very good, they're probably equally bad to both teams. So they're making mistakes on both teams. But anytime a coach, the team and the fans take on the coach's behavior and personality. So if the coach is gonna blame it on us, now the players are gonna start thinking, hey, it it really is our fault. And then the the fans, they they they follow suit, and now they their bad behavior. When in reality, it's sometimes the other team is just more talented and better. It just happens that way. There's there's games you walk into, I don't care what happened, is that they're just gonna be better. That has nothing to do with the officiating. And and if coaches can understand that and just say, hey, let me coach my team to get the best out of them, not necessarily to win, because a win could be many things, but to just play to their best, and sometimes that's gonna be best. But if they they have the attitude that anytime they win or lose something, it's an official's fault. Well, I didn't make the calls, I didn't serve a player when he was hot and he brought in somebody who turned the ball over two, three times. It's it's generally not ever, even if it is, a good coach says, hey, that has nothing to do with how we play. That has nothing to do with our effort, because that's what I'm looking for from coaching. I'm looking for effort and uh the ability to get better game after game, play after play.

SPEAKER_05 42:50

I'm I'm glad you said that because I think uh what you said there about these coaches that want to, not the great ones, as you said, but the coaches that want to blame it on the official when they're probably just not good enough or not prepared enough or whatever it is, those same coaches aren't turning around and telling you thank you when they win the game. Right? They're not they're not blaming the win on you, are they? They're taking credit for that or whatever. So uh yeah, you can't have it both ways, or you gotta have it both ways if you're gonna do that. So yeah, I agree with you. Just uh as a coach, recognize recognize the talent in the game and and and lead the officiating out of it. And sometimes it you're not the most talented team and coach your team the best that they can be. I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

I think I want to add one more piece. So and and the thing is that sometimes people don't they they think we have a hard time when a coach gets on us. And and I don't, or most of us don't. So there's times that it's totally acceptable. Hey, we we're not doing our job, or we made a mistake, and he has a reaction to it. To me, that's totally acceptable. I accept that, it's it's spontaneous. Reaction, hey, he wants to voice his opinion, we should listen, or he has a question about something. We should always answer questions, legit questions, as long as it's not every play that he's asking about or she is asking about. Um, and then two is sometimes they're doing it to get their team motivated. So so they may have their outbursts, but then they come back and say, Hey, they explain to me why they did what he did, and hey, we're good. I'm usually on the same page with them, hey, I gotta go for it. Um it's the ones that do it that are disrespectful and and it has no bearing on really what we're trying to achieve, is that hey, of course, we're out here all trying to get the same thing, which is a fair game, and it's about the kids and the players, it's not about any of us. So I think that's the important part is that it's okay for you to have a fiery coach as long as he's fired up for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_05 45:04

Yeah, and I mean you mentioned that national championship game. We were talking about it and asking some questions just because I was curious of um, you know, what the what the instructions are at that level, right? And you said the the simple instruction was to you guys as the officials, keep the game moving, right? Just keep the game. And and I thought that was a great summary of what great officials are trying to do. And uh, you know, a lot of people think, oh, they came to be seen. Y'all are just trying to keep the game moving because when the game's over, that that you know, y'all aren't really worried about who wins and loses. You're worried about doing a good job. And I thought that was a great summary of your goal is just keep the game moving. So, yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Really good. Yeah, I think most coaches and and I think ADs, fans, or everybody is if a game is in a rhythm, everybody's happy. So if we can stay out of the way and not blow whistles or not throw flags or whatever, is that coaches coach, they're in a rhythm, players play, they're in a rhythm, fans watch, they're enjoying it, and everybody is happy. So our goal is for the most part is if we didn't have to throw a flag the whole game, we'd be overjoyed. Right. And I think everybody would be super happy because everybody's gonna walk away feeling like the game moved along and and they were able to enjoy the sporting event. Um but there's times where we have to. We call them game interrupters, but if they're necessary to make it fair, then everybody accepts that. So yeah, minimal interruptions is the goal. I think I always my my goal for my crew when we go out to games and stuff is it doesn't matter basketball, football, whatever. Just hey, let's let's try to get into a flow because if everybody's flowing, everything is flowing, everybody's happy.

SPEAKER_05 46:56

That's good. It's really good, yeah. Good reminder. Alright, Marcus, one last question before we do a little two-minute drill, have a little fun with you. But uh, we're asking everyone this year to kind of finish up the conversation to respond to this statement from a book called The Five Graces of Life in Leadership by Gary Bernerson. Here's the statement. You just respond uh with whatever comes to mind, whatever way you want to take it there. But the statement is leadership. It starts with a leader, but it's not about the leader. How do you respond to that?

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Um, so when I when I'm hearing that statement is that if you make it about the leader, then generally people are not gonna want to follow. Because you you're making it about you. And if you're a leader, it means you have a team. And then the question is, well, nobody has been successful without their team. So when I hear that, to me is it it it doesn't have to be about the leader at all. It has to always be about the team. If you listen to the best quarterbacks, you listen to Jalen Hurts just a year after winning the Super Bowl, he didn't make it about him. He made it about his defense and the team and the effort that they put in to win that game because it took every single person who stepped on that field to win that Super Bowl. It's the same thing in any organization or any coup or anything. It's I may be uh assigned the title of leader, but it's not earned until you have people who follow you and want to support you. And then my job is to make sure that they get as much shine as I do or as a leader. Um because really we we couldn't accomplish anything without any pieces of that unit functioning at a high level.

SPEAKER_05 48:49

Yeah, it'd be hard to officiate that game as a white hat without the other what nine guys out there, eight eight or nine guys, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 48:58

Yeah, you can't go move the ball and throw the flag and talk on the talk on the PA and everything else by yourself, right? So wouldn't be wouldn't be very good flow for sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

But no. Well you'd be surprised how many someone how many times someone steps up to interject something to keep us from looking crazy or making a mistake. It's it takes ten of us to officiate that game to the highest level. And and not one part is more or less important than the other because when that person saves your butt, they're just um just as important as anybody. So that's right.

SPEAKER_05 49:35

That's good. Good reminders. Marcus, thanks for giving us the inside look to officiating and hopefully uh hopefully get parents to listen to this, but uh especially the um the ones who may want to get into officiating, our students and and folks like that. Hopefully they'll listen. But you gave us good reminders today. So thank you for that. Now Don's gonna jump into a little two-minute drill. We'll go back and forth and uh just uh see how you like these questions.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

All right. All right, Marcus, we're gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. You just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind, okay? All right. What was the first job you had ever in your life? What was your very first job? Working at a movie theater as a ticket taker.

SPEAKER_05 50:15

There you go. Hopefully, you got free movies. I don't know. Hey, I did. If you could visit any place in the world right now, where would you go?

SPEAKER_04 50:25

I think I go back to Europe, like Italy. Good spot. Uh now we're gonna play a game of hot or not. So these are either what you would consider a hot take or not. So it's you know, hot take is an unpopular opinion that you may feel strongly about. So I'll say this statement. If you say hot, that means you agree with it. If you say hot, that means that you don't agree with it. Okay. Okay. Breakfast for dinner is better than breakfast in the morning. I say hot.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

I'd agree with you. All right. Uh hot or not here, boneless wings are just glorified chicken nuggets.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

So I agree with that. Meaning, I don't want no boneless chicken wings. I want I want some bones in my wings.

SPEAKER_04 51:15

Yeah, so that's a bit for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely hot. All right. Uh the NBA three-point revolution has made the game less fun to watch.

SPEAKER_05 51:28

All right, last one. March Madness is the best postseason tournament in all of sports. Nah. Gotta go with the CFP, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:38

100%. Yeah, we got a new, we got a new tournament in town.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

That's a good point. All right. Uh, next question. So we uh we're asking uh our guest here, uh, we're using uh it's called 365 questions. It's by uh Brett Ledbetter. So what I want you to do, I want you to pick a number between one and 365 for me. All right.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Let's do uh 11.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

All right. If you were going to talk to pressure as if it was a person and describe three ways it's impacted your life, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 52:19

I'm talking to pressure.

SPEAKER_05 52:22

Not that you have any pressure in any of these games you're officiating.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

You picked the right question right there. To talk to pressure as if it was a person and describe three ways that it has impacted your life.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

So so one is uh I've done uh a talk on this a little bit, which is preferred pressure, you are a privilege. Um, and what I mean by that is to get into a scenario where you're having to deal with pressure, and that's I'll use the national championship as an example. That means we've done enough work to and then enough to earn enough respect to even be put into that position. So it's the privilege of being in under pressure. Uh two is I think pressure is what builds us because you have to go through pressure situations to to develop and get better, get stronger. Uh struggle and and and going through those things are how we grow. And I use the butterfly as an example. If a butterfly from a caterpillar doesn't struggle when it's trying to develop its wings, it'll never fly. So it had to have the pressure of going through the molten process, changing, and and struggle to get out of that cocoon in order for it to fly. Same thing for us in officiating, is you've got to go through some tough situations to be better, to learn, to get the tools in your toolbox to uh to be better. And then third would be pressures in any situation, but um you just gotta keep going. Um I guess you say ask the question of it was asked a question about pressure.

SPEAKER_04 54:15

Yeah, you if you were talking to it as if it was a person, yeah. How has it impacted you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Yeah. So so it is just giving me opportunities that I never imagined in my life that would be afforded to me. And I appreciate every single last one. Because from every situation I've learned something, whether it was positive or negative, um, at some point um you have to do those things to get to wherever you're going. And pray that it pays off in a situation when um I need it.

SPEAKER_05 54:49

Man, that was really good. Wow. That's good stuff. All right, a couple more. Would you rather be able to speak every language or play every musical instrument?

SPEAKER_01 55:01

So one of my well, can I get can I say both? Yeah, that's gonna work.

SPEAKER_05 55:08

Uh you got a hidden talent here. Uh that's it coming.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

No, the play of the instruments I think is is amazing. I I I look at artists just in general and just their ability to make music and what it what music does for us, and it's it's it goes across, doesn't matter what language you speak, where you're from, whatever, it's there's certain pieces of music that does the same thing to different people. There's things that hype us up, there's things that make us calm, there's things that make us sad. There's so many emotions tied to music that the ability to be able to play every instrument would be amazing because you can tell stories without saying a word. To be able to speak the language, I probably, if I could just speak one or two of them, I think I can make a lot of money. But um, just to have that unique ability to be able to understand uh all walks of life and be able to communicate with anybody as you come across them would be great. Um so it's kind of hard to pick between those two.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

So let's let's let's kind of go, let's go ask what let's kind of maybe do another level of that. It doesn't have to be tied to those two. What's a random skill that you wish you had? I've always had like this vision. If I could do it, walk into a hotel lobby, sit down at the piano, and just start playing the piano. And then before I know it, I can crowd around me. That is never gonna happen. Okay. But if you had a random skill, uh, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Uh I think one of my uh if I had another life and I could pick a different path or or I could add on to it, it would be a DJ. My skill I would add on is the ability to be a DJ and command a party and make people move and have a great time. That's good.

SPEAKER_05 57:03

Yeah, a lot a lot of people say you command a party on Saturday afternoon in Syracuse, New York, or Durham, North Carolina, right? So that's good. Um no. All right, last one, let's finish with this. It's our trademark question. Today, Marcus Woods, you've been hanging with the ADs, but let's say you could hang out with anyone, who would that be and why?

SPEAKER_01 57:23

I can hang out with anyone, and who would it be? Uh I would and I'm it may not be a person, a specific person, but I tell you what I would want to be able to do. I would like to hang out with someone who could help me and us figure out how to solve some of the what I think could be simple things in this world where we don't have as much poverty, we don't have as much segregation or uh just inequalities. I would like to sit with someone who had an answer who could help us figure out how we can make sure everybody is fed, they have housing, they have access to health care, because I would want to turn around and share that. So I can't say a specific person, it's someone that could do that that we figure it out. Great answer.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Marcus, thank you so much for the time today. You helped kind of shed a light uh on the world of officiating, uh, and that's definitely going to reach uh outside of our walls uh and into our communities and at our events. So again, thanks again for the time.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

I appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me on. This was fun. I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_05 58:52

Well, today we took a little different angle on athletic leadership. We went behind the stripes, the officials, the ones that we have to have to play the game. We have not had a meaningful game, a game that counts in the record books, ever, to my knowledge, without an official. And most of us have rules to where we have to have certified officials. So today, getting to talk to Marcus Woods, a great basketball and football official. I love it when I see him in our gym because I know we got a pro in the building. And he uh he he he presents himself as a pro, he shows himself as a pro, he demonstrates pro habits, and he is a professional official like a lot of our officials are, or most of our officials. And uh, Marcus was great today, giving us a little behind the scenes of what it looks like to be uh an official uh in the world he lives in and how they treat their jobs just like our coaches do and just like our players do. It's it's a game to them, it's a way for them to uh be part of the game. And as we just said, it's a vital part of the game, it's a necessary part. And uh, you know, I thought uh the one takeaway I'll share, I mean, I think we had everything here from being unselfish to being invisible to uh not making leadership about the leader, but making it about the team. I mean, Marcus shared a ton of nuggets with us, but right there at the end, how about that? It was almost uh as an afterthought, a side note. Pressure is a privilege. When you're in a pressure situation, more times than not, it's a big situation. It's a situation that you're capable of, that you've been put in because of your uh abilities and because of uh your calling. And he said, pressure is a privilege. Wow, that was that was strong. Love that. So, Marcus, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for making us better leaders. Look forward to seeing you in the gym on the football field soon. And uh, if you're listening, we would love for you to rate us, review us, hit the button there to give us a star rating. Uh, we would we would appreciate that. And as always, thank you for spending your time hanging with the ADs.