SPEAKER_00 0:04

We're listening to the Inc with D podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and listen towards through leadership. Now, here are your hosts, Dr. Matthews and Don Baker.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Today we stay a little closer to home and sit down with author and speaker Clay Scrogans from Atlanta, Georgia. His book, How to Lead When You're Not in Charge, is a must for anyone, whether they are in a position of leadership or not. Everyone answers to someone, and Clay left us with some great nuggets as we look to get better in the space and place that we are in currently. Let's settle in and get to know Clay Scrog.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Clay, we're so glad to have you joining Don and me for this episode of Hanging with the AD. I know we've made some connections already with former guests and friends of ours. So uh great to have another uh leadership guest with us today.

SPEAKER_05 1:04

Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Josh. And um I I love ADs and I love what you got. I love well for particular coaches. My family, uh, my dad's oldest brother, uh, my whole childhood was a high school football coach in the state of Florida. And so uh my childhood growing up was going to his football games. My dad did the PA at Terry Parker High School in Jacksonville, Florida. And I would go and, you know, my dream was to be the ball boy uh on the get on the sidelines. So love, I really appreciate what you all do to form student athletes and uh help communities. Thanks for having me on this.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, that's great. So for our listeners, Clay Scrogans is the author of three leadership books, a student and speaker on leadership, and he's also a podcast host. His podcast is the How to Lead podcast with Adam Tarnau. And his books are How to Lead When You're Not in Charge. We'll talk a lot about that. How to Lead in a World of Distractions, and his most recent work is The Aspiring Leader's Guide to the Future. He commonly speaks on themes uh in his work on the on those themes um as a work and travels around as a keynote speaker. Clay has a very deep leadership background uh through his journey. So we'll stop right there and let him tell us a little bit more about his leadership journey. Clay, we call it the back of the baseball card bio. So tell us what the back of Clay Scrogan's baseball card would look like.

SPEAKER_05 2:29

Uh, captain of my high school baseball team probably hit like 270. Um, not a good fielder, not a good hitter, and uh was always very interested in leadership.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Shoot, 270, I'll just put you a lead leader right now. I'll take that. Yeah, they don't hit 270 in the big leagues anymore.

SPEAKER_05 2:46

Well, but what about in high school? They're all hitting 270 in high school.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Uh they're a little bit better now. That's right. Aluminum better.

SPEAKER_05 2:52

I would imagine. That's right, that's right. Uh yeah, I grew up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Um, my parents are uh they graduated from school there. We moved to Jacksonville Porter for a little bit and then moved back to Alabama when I was seven. And uh I graduated from high school there, went to moved to Atlanta to go to Georgia Tech, studied uh engineering there, knew pretty quickly this is not what I need to be doing. Uh college was a beatdown for me. I was uh I was mismajored, I feel like. I was trying to major in something that was not what I was good at doing. And I I knew it, they knew it, but I graduated with it anyway, and I went to Texas to go to seminary. I was going to um, I've been a pastor for the most most of my career. So I went and got um went and did some education there. Uh best thing that happened to me while I was there is I met my wife. Um, she was also in school. She's a uh she's definitely she's Texas born and bred, went to Texas AM, and uh she's an Aggie. And then we moved to Atlanta in 2000, see, it was 2006, and I started working as a pastor. Uh we have five kids. Oldest is uh high school sophomore. We got a 10th grade, eighth grade, sixth grade, fourth grade, and a first grader. So we go to uh a school, an Atlanta public school. Um that we've has been such a great thing for our family. So but I spend a lot of time at youth sports, that's for sure. Um right now we're playing, let's see, our oldest is on the soccer team. Our the next two just finished middle school basketball, and then the younger two are still just playing kind of rec sports. So um, yeah, that's it. That's the story. Now, now I work, I do this. Um I worked as a pastor for a long time. In 2021, I resigned in my pastor job and um started doing this full time, uh, speak doing really doing a lot of keynote speaking. So about 70% of my work is doing keynote kind of speak uh a keynote talk for a company or business, nonprofit, and then about 30%. I still preach at churches a bunch. So uh that cobbled all that together and it's turned into a career. It's just been uh a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

That's good. That's wonderful. Yeah, great. Uh watch uh watch a summer or two uh getting ready for this. So uh yeah, you got it up there on the stage, man. That's cool. So uh we'll we'll talk at the end about how people can connect with you and if they want a speaker or something like that. I know you'll be up for that. So we'll talk about that at the end. But hey, let's jump right in. Uh, we talked leadership here. Obviously, you're in that world. What is your definition of a leader?

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Well, I use the that that the first book I wrote that Berg you mentioned, How to Leave You're Not in Charge. Um, in that book, that was really good for me because I I didn't have a definition of it. I don't I don't know that you, you know, I don't know. I was never I never had to write down a definition of a leader. But for me, it really is um, I tried to define, I guess the closest thing I got to that was defining leadership as influence, which that's certainly not my own. I mean, people have given it that before, but I I like this illustration. I use this a lot when I'm doing a talk on this topic. Uh, you guys do all I assume you go to public some, you know, the or Kroger, Kroger and Publix, they have the carts that look like um, they look like little cars, you know, and you put a toddler in there. So when our kids were little, they loved getting in those things, and I would try to be the fun dad, and they would turn the wheel to the left, I'd turn the cart, they'd turn it to the right, and they got the feeling that the cart, that they were driving the cart, right? And uh eventually we'd have to get all the shopping done. So I'd start heading over to the produce, kind of heading straight over there, and then they would see the candy aisle with all the wrappers and you know, the bright colors, all the things they wish they could eat all the time. And they would frantically turn the wheel to the left, but the cart would just keep going straight. And they would look up at me with this look, you know, that the look was like, I, you know, disappointed, I feel disillusioned, I feel like you lied to me. I wish I had a new dad, you know, one of those kind of looks. And I remember the moment it hit me, this is my problem with leadership, is that I have been given the steering wheel at work, but it's not working. And it's it's in that moment that I found the flaw or the lie or the myth in the in my own definition of leadership, that I was defining a leader as somebody who's in charge. But we all know people who are in charge who aren't leading well. We all know people who are not in charge who have changed the world. So I I have tried to, over the course of the last couple of years, um, really tried to convince leaders that number one, that you are a leader no matter what seat you're in. And number two, leadership works, the steering wheel works, but it doesn't work because of a title. It doesn't work because of authority, it works because you learn how to cultivate influence, because leadership is influence.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

That's good. Now, a topic that you've talked a lot about, but is scary to really dig into is bold leadership. Uh, that word bold really ramps up the intensity of whatever it proceeds. You simplify bold leadership to three things. Bold leadership is making decisions despite uncertainty, despite the cost, and despite fear. How is bold leadership different than just leadership? And why is it a separator in the ranks of those great leaders?

SPEAKER_05 8:16

I guess because um there are to your you you said it, I thought you said it well, that it's it is a um it's a bit of a it's kind of a it's it's those one-off moments in leadership. Not all not every moment of every day are we called upon to be bold. Um a lot of cultivating influence, if that's what becoming a leader is, learning how to cultivate influence, you know, you can do that by showing up on time, responding to things in a timely manner, doing the right thing at the right moment, you know, when whether somebody's looking or not. But bold leadership is this, it's that moment that requires some courage. You know, it's the uh, I guess my high school coach would have called it, intestinal fortitude, right? It's that moment when you got to really draw upon something deep within you to do something that you know is gonna be uncomfortable. Um it's as as you mentioned there, it's gonna cost you something. It might be embarrassing to do it, it might um it's gonna really take some courage. So I don't, you know, I don't know that those happen. They certainly don't happen every day. They might happen once a week, but probably more often than that, it's just a couple times a year, where you've really got to decide, all right, do I believe this? Do I really believe this is right? Do I really believe this is important enough to step out in courage? And um, so I guess that's the way I think of it, is I just think of it as um those uh those moments where extra courage is called upon uh versus your just the everyday consistency and faithfulness and of the cultivating influence.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Yep, that makes sense. Now let's talk about your book, How to Lead When You Are Not in Charge. First, talk about what prompted you to write this book uh and how that feeling you had probably applies to every one of us. Almost all of us work for someone else, right? There's always a bigger bear. So talk to that for a minute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:15

I should have asked y'all this before this, but you got, I know you have a lot of ADs that listen to this, but you have coaches. This is for coaches, assistant coaches. Yeah, so you know, an assistant coach is a great example of somebody that I was thinking of when I was writing this book. I was a, you know, at the time, I was an associate pastor. I was in a large organization. Uh, the church that I work for in Atlanta has a kind of a network of multiple locations. There would have been, by the time I uh left in 2021, I mean, there were probably five or six hundred employees. So most people within the organization felt like they were, you know, sandwiched in the middle of the organization. Some would even, you know, I would have even used the word, you know, probably to close friends, I would have said, I feel stuck from time to time, right? And the reason why, and I think this is so relevant, I would imagine, to assistant coaches or even coaches. Um, you you've got this, you've got a natural hierarchy, right, of the way leadership works because you just think, oh, well, if I want to have power, I got to become the AD because the AD is gonna get the one to make all the all the decisions. And so if you're an assistant coach, you're going, man, I got a long way to go. So what do I do until then? Right. And so that was the position I was in of going, I have dreams, I have thoughts, I have hopes, I have desires, I have opinions, I've got plans and strategies. And um, you know, I think I think everybody does because I believe everybody, I believe leadership is woven into the DNA of who we are, but um not necessarily be out and hunt, but to create something and build something, design something, organize something. So when I was in that assistant role going, well, what am I supposed to do with all this? Right. And I would the the for me where it showed up the most were in the moments where I did get promoted. So in the sports sense, I went from being, you know, just a position coach to I got promoted to a more prominent position, got promoted to a coordinator, got promoted to even at one point, you know, in a way, a head coach. And with every one of those promotions, I would go, okay, now, now I can really get some stuff done because now I've got the power. Now I've got more authority, a bigger title. And every single time that hope or longing was met with disappointment because I realized, no, I do have a bigger title, I do have more, in a sense, more authority, but I'm still um, I still have plenty of bosses that can say, no, we don't have the budget for that. Nope, that's not the way we do it around here. No, um, go, you know, go back to your room and keep working on what you're working on. So um that it was, it was in the it was that feeling that made me go, that I I can I can point the finger and blame, or I can look in the mirror and go, I gotta do something different. I got I gotta figure out is it possible to lead when you're not in charge? Is it possible to cultivate influence and then learn how to leverage influence even when you don't have the senior level title or the senior level amount of authority?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Now, how did writing this book change you even while you were still not in charge?

SPEAKER_05 13:16

I think it gave it it was anytime you look in the mirror, anytime you, you know, anytime you decide to take all your frustration that's going externally, if you can channel that and look in the mirror and go, what do I need to do different? I think that's always a healthy change. That's always a healthy thing to do. And that was the that was probably what it did for me the most. You know, the um, you know, at the time we're recording this, you know, we've just inaugurated a new president, elected a new president. Um, you know, one of the beauties of America is that 50% of the people are excited and 50% of the people are devastated, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:51

It's um that two-party political system that we have is kind of challenging, but it's also there's something healthy about it. I I I think we all believe this, that as important as it is, what as what's happening in the White House, what's happening in my house is what's going to really affect my life, right? And and it doesn't, that's not to diminish how important what's what it what's happening in the White House is, but when it comes to my own life, when it comes to my circle of friends and my community and where I live and my day-to-day life, if I had to choose between spend all my energy focused on what's happening in the White House or spend energy focused on what's happening in my house, which one has the best hope for change? I think it's my house, right? And so that was the best thing it did is it made me look in the mirror and go, all right, I can be frustrated at what my bosses are not doing, I can be frustrated at what the other departments are not doing, I can be frustrated about what I don't have, or I can look in the mirror and go, all right, what do I have? And how do I cultivate more of that? And how do I learn how to leverage that to try to do some good? And you know, the great news is if you do it, it'll help your own career. But more than that, I think the best motivation is if you learn how to cultivate influence and if you learn how to leverage influence well, man, you can you can make a significant difference in somebody's life. And I mean, that's that's me talking to the choir. I don't know that there are many people in our culture that make a bigger difference in the lives of young people than coaches and ADs. So that's to me, that's the greatest opportunity that we have as we learn how to cultivate more influence.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, it's good. But every one of those ADs or athletic administrators listing, uh, they heard you talk about the assistant coach and then the head coach kind of reporting up to us, but every one of those ADs are thinking, I've got a principal or a superintendent or a college president or a super, you know, uh I think of a doctor at a district level superintendent. Uh, I mean, everybody's got somebody above them, right? So it's uh how to cultivate that influence with uh those people, but also to the people that you're leading is to where this book, I told you beforehand, I won't show it to our people. I mean, I took the jacket off the word out. So it's uh I took as many notes in this book as I've ever taken in any book. And maybe that's just where my heart is right now. Uh, like you said, maybe I was looking in the mirror reading your book. Uh, I thought it was incredible. I found it to be so applicable, no matter the title or hat I wear during the day, whether that's assistant principal, uh uh athletic director, dad, husband, uh, uh, church member, whatever it is, that the book applied. But the section I thought was most resonated with me and brought the most prop to me was the chapter on Thinking Critically. I know the book's about doing your best where you are. You've kind of alluded to and gone into some of it now with people's appetite. But thinking about how people move up the ladder, why is it so hard for leaders moving up to leave their previous roles and maybe replace some of that doing with scheduling and taking time to think critically? I know you talked about getting promoted, having to leave that previous job. I know you had to work through that. I think Mark Miller calls it creating margin. I like that idea. Uh and before you answer, as you formulate your answer, I did want to read one of the quotes that that I pulled out of this section, and it is learning how to exercise the skill of thinking critically for the good of others is essential to leading when you're not in charge. So uh talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Uh I think the there's a number of reasons why it gets harder as you grow in your career. But to me, the most obvious one is that when you are, you know, in any organization, when you're an entry-level employee, you know, usually it's like an analyst, or it would be like an intern, or it would be, you know, uh an a a teacher in a school. Um for me, it was being a youth master. Um the problems that you're facing are problems that you usually can solve with your intuition. You you've been get, you know, you're pro you were probably hired because you have learned some level of critical thinking that you can apply instinctively. The problem comes, you make a decision, you solve it. The longer you are in your career, the you know, the quote unquote higher you grow in an organization of the org chart, the problems become increasingly complicated to the point where you cannot solve them with your just baseline intuition. It requires it requires you to get away, get some quiet moments, think through it, possibly talk with some others about it, test your idea, and then roll it out because it's such a complicated thing. I mean, for both of you, the amount of people that your decisions affect, it just requires a higher level of critical thinking because of how many different moving parts there are. And so I think that's to me, that's the first most baseline reason. But I would say the second part is that we just don't have um life wants to life wants to crush that skill of critical thinking. And I would say more specifically, not just life, but technology does. And I I'm a fan of technology. I went to the Georgia Institute of Technology, I believe in technology, I love technology, but our tendency, you know, right now we're seeing it through, you know, the uh AI, large language models, exactly chat GPT. Uh it's it it is an incredible skill, and I mean unbelievable tool. But you think about the long-term effects and how much it will, it how much it could impact our ability to think critically. But I would say email, it you know, uh, internet, it anything um that is a shortcut and helps us, makes life more efficient, can also become the greatest enemy to our critical thinking. Because I mean, I don't know about you all, but I wake up in the morning, I don't like it, but like it's like there's a magnet in my hand and my phone is in my hand before my 10 toes have even touched the ground. I haven't even thought about what do I need to be doing today, who do I need to be helping, what are the problems I'm gonna be facing, what are the ways that I can help serve the people that I'm gonna be seeing today. I just immediately, you know, and oftentimes I'm I'm just scrolling, and some of it's for good, some of it it does help me get more efficient, but I think it also becomes an enemy of critical thinking. So I would say for that, you know, Josh, those are the first two things that I thought about when you asked that question. What um I assume you all see that. You see technology getting in the way, being an enemy of critical thinking.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, the AI. I mean, I just heard a presentation. We're gonna have some AI folks on here later this year to talk about how it can help us in what we do, but we're seeing it in the education world with students and and even adults, right? But uh I just saw a presentation, and you're right, it it's gonna do everything for us, right? It and you got to give it some parameters, so you gotta think about it, but it's gonna take any a lot of thought out, and that's what the question was about you you just got to get away and think, and and there is power in that.

unknown 21:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 21:09

For me, it's the morning. I mean, it's the and I don't know, you know, I don't I'm curious where you've seen it in your life, both of you, but for me, it was learning how to take control of the morning. And I and I know not everybody's a morning person, so there's obviously ways during the day. Maybe you're a you know late night person, but it was the greatest change I made in my career was getting to work earlier, which meant I had to get to work, get up earlier, which meant I had to go to bed earlier, which meant I had to watch less live sports or watch less Netflix. But that change, it it opened up a whole new world for me because I was able to get some technology free time to think about how I could do my job better. And that was a game changer for me. Um, you know, you could do it during the day, certainly. You know, maybe it's the drive to work, maybe it's um not stacking meetings back to back. Maybe if you have a chance to take a lunch. break and it's you know taking a walk during the lunch break and thinking about things instead of just you know scrolling through uh the you know right now it's right now for me my algorithm it's all it's all Luca and Anthony Davis news for me right now it's crazy which has no has no effect on my own life.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah zero. But I'm fascinated with it. Yeah agreed. Now you you talk about the making those critical decisions and you talk about you you mentioned when I make decisions it's based off of what is best for close to 13,000 athletes in this district. And I take I don't I don't take that lightly. And uh so I'm always trying to to evolve as best I can in real time to make sure that we're making the best decisions. And you say something in the book about evolving as a person and a leader to what got you there will not get you where you want to be. I believe what's Babe Ruth who said yesterday's home run is not going to win today's game. You know talk about talk to us about evolving in our thinking and learning when a lot of times we see the success that our previous actions got us and kind of wonder well why don't those same actions not continue to propel me to what I want to do next?

SPEAKER_05 23:12

Well some of it's what we just talked about. You know the uh some of the things that got you into the role that you're in are now kind of table stakes. They're now just a given right I mean you know you can't just showing up on time and just being a a positive force for good might get you into the role but it it's not the skills that are going to allow you to be successful because now they just those become expectations. We expect you to do those things now. So how do you get above it and find that that higher level of thinking to be able to uh solve some of the problems that you're facing there's a to me it's um it that skill of critical thinking that I mean the when I think about my own life in the last couple of years the thing that's helped me more than anything is I have a there's a younger guy in my life that I I originally hired him he's probably he's probably 30. I'm 44. I hired him originally to do some marketing work for me and he's become just a good friend but I think of him now as like a reverse mentor. I feel like he is um he's teaching me things that I wouldn't have learned and and at the very least he's translating he's helping me understand the way a 30 year old thinks and I've never had to think about that because for the longest time I felt like I was the third I was thinking like the 30 year old but now I'm you know I'm a middle aged dad with consumed with you know me and my wife trying to help figure out how to raise these kids. And so it's it's become harder to find the time but it's become more important to find somebody younger than me to help help me think through and see the world differently. And there's a balance there because there's I'm not saying that um it's all about evolving. Some of it is about knowing what you believe and being willing to stick to those. And there's something important about understanding those traditional values that are never going to go away. But I think that combination understanding what's timeless and then understanding what is relevant to today and important to try to learn I think that combination is uh that's a tricky combination for some. It certainly is for me. But having somebody younger than me help translate that has been tremendously beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah that's a tremendous um idea there reverse I I talk a lot about mentors and and I've got a couple guys in my life that are really special but like a lot of us or most of us they're older right they're not teaching me AI stuff I'm I'm kind of teaching them or or we're on the same same wavelength but uh that's really really good that's that's a great thought there for sure. Now like I said one of my favorite books here one of my favorite lines of the books comes from page 34 when you say even though I don't know you personally I can guarantee you you have an opportunity to create an oasis of excellence right where you are that that idea of excellence is uh kind of my life of you know conflict right now and uh that creating an oasis of excellence right where you are really hit me.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

That sounds like it applies to anyone and everyone so everyone listening especially us too Don and myself would love to hear you dissect that uh and what you wrote there yeah I I I bumped into that concept for me because I was again I found myself frustrated about things I found myself going man if they would put me in charge if they would let me give me the reins to that if they would put that department under me I feel like I could bring some order to it and it's this is really a um it's really a it's my way of ripping off something that Jesus said I think um his line was if you can be trusted with a little you will be trusted with more it's that same concept that if you can show the ability to handle what you are in charge of with excellence that is how you show that you are ready and able to handle more. And I think there's a lot of people you know there's plenty I'm sure there's plenty of assistant coaches saying man if they would give me the offense I feel like I could do something about it. If they would give if they'd let me be the head coach if they'd let me be the AD if they'd let me be the principal they let me be the superintendent you know I I think at some point we got to recognize the fact that it never really ends, right? But the truth is I could spend a lot of energy frustrated about that and spend a lot of energy trying to figure out what I would do if I was in those shoes. And there's something good about that because that's how we learn and that's how we can grow. But I think the um the the most important thing for my day today is to go what am I most in charge of today? And how can I handle that with as much excellence as possible. And if I do that over time other people will see that and there will be more opportunity than I could ever want to be able to lead more than I'm currently leading. But it's got to start with our most primary area of leadership which is managing what I'm most in charge of.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah that's good. I think adding on that you know do what you do or do what you're in charge of with excellence, right? That's the separator, the differentiator you talked about it entry level job entry level in your career and and showing up on time well when you became different you showed up well before whenever on time was right that that's excellence right you show you getting there my wife she might disagree with you jock but punctuality might that might not be the best uh example for me but yes I have better yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah with I think folks have to say well I'm doing a good job when I'm doing well good good's not excellent right and when you when you do it with excellence and you got to know what that is and it's got to be different than everybody else. So yeah I think uh it that little extra there Nick Saban talks about being a trash collector right but being it better than everybody else being excellent at it. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 29:19

Can I interject one little thing there, Josh? I would also add to that however good you think you are doesn't really matter. Oh that's great I would say what's most important is what do people around you think about the job that you're doing. And so there's I think all of us, you know, what all of us are tempted to do is we're all tempted to go, yeah man, preaching to the choir. I got it for sure. I do what I do with excellence. Well do you know that do you do you know that the people around you see that and how courageous are you being in going and getting those opinions because they have an opinion about it. They have a thought about it but you ought to be tenacious. I got to decide am I willing to be tenacious on going and getting feedback as to what's really true? You know what do they really think about it? And there's always a gap between how great I think I'm doing and what other people's perception of how I'm doing is and some of that you got to let go. Some of it you got to get over and get rid of and go, well I'm not gonna make everybody happy and I can't please everybody but I got to have a few people in my life who are willing to say hey was that really the bad was that here here's here's a way you could potentially change that. Is there a way you could upgrade that is there a way you could sharpen that and I got to be tenacious to go get that information uh because that's what's really going to matter not not my own self-assessment but how do other people feel that I'm doing with some of those basic things.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Mm-hmm. Now when you're kind of just in your thoughts uh what is something that you seldom get to talk about but think about often during your study of leaders and leadership maybe just something that you're gonna be on a golf course here in a minute and outside of trying to keep it in a fair way when when you're just thinking right like what are some things you don't necessarily talk a ton about but it's it's on your mind a lot.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

Well you you brought up uh Nick Saban I think about people like him you know or you know if you want to who else you want to put in that category Tiger Woods you know Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or I think one of one of my biggest questions that I have that I don't have an answer to is is it possible to be a healthy human and be ultra successful at one thing? It sure seems I mean I cause I know even Saban in his later in the last few years I've heard him talk about um how he wasn't he didn't feel like he was great at being a dad and that he wasn't around near as much as he probably should have been and I don't think I mean listening to his schedule that and and you guys know in the world of coaching, I mean it is one of the most time consuming jobs that there is and I think that's what I struggle with is is it possible to be incredibly successful at one thing and yet still be really healthy and and and handle the things that I know I I want to handle. I mean in the end you know we all gotta like think about that eulogy that somebody's gonna give at your funeral about what they're gonna say and um you got you just got to decide do I want my kids to say he was a great dad or do I want people to say he was really good at his profession. And I hope you can do both of those. I think there are examples of men and women who've done both of those but um there's a lot of there's a lot of balls that we gotta juggle a lot of things we got to keep in the air and do really well and we got to decide what's the one that I care most about I think because it does seem hard to be ultra successful and then healthy in all those other important areas. I don't know what it would what what do you what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_01 32:56

No I I think I think there's a lot of people driving down the road shaking their head saying yes I want to be the best dad best husband best mom best what wife and I want to be the best athletic director I want to be yeah I want to be the athletic director at Blank high school which is the best high school or blank or blank college you know University of Alabama wherever and they know that requires a ton of hours that are going to sacrifice from family and how do you we we talk about how do you make the lifestyle beneficial to everyone in your you know strategic it's not about there's no way to balance what we do. I don't think there's probably any way to balance anything you do that you're gonna do with excellence right high level leadership or anything but um how how do how do you create that lifestyle for your family especially your kids who are going to appreciate it I I'll be honest I think you know Nick Saber looking in the mirror there what you talked about but now you see his daughter who's the mom of his grandkids right uh but his daughter really has defended him and talked about the impact he had on her life even though he missed a lot of it probably but I think I think those are some of those rewards we reap in this profession at least way down the road and hopefully we do it right to where we reap those rewards from our our kids as well as other kids, right?

SPEAKER_05 34:22

Yeah I think I guess if I were going to answer my own question there, I think what you got to do is you got to decide you know you remember that illustration they would do I don't even know what class that would have been in where they put the, you know they pour the sand pour the water in, pour the sand in, put the rocks in, you can't fit it, right? And then they turn it around. They go, well put the big rocks in first and then pour the sand in and then pour the water in and it all fits right so I think you got to start I think if I were going to advise myself I would start by going all right well what are the big rocks I got to put in first right I gotta work there's gotta be some amount that I am going to work. I mean you know just like you all my work and my personal life are all interdependent. If I don't work my personal life is going to be pretty awful and if I don't you know if my family life is awful it's gonna affect my work life. So they're inter so I gotta I gotta I gotta work some at least some I gotta spend some time with my wife which I fortunately I enjoy doing but sometimes it does take you know means I got to say no to some other things right and and then with parenting there's an amount that I feel like all right I gotta be able to do this. I mean fortunately you know from 7 30 to three you know there's not a lot of parenting that can be done. So um we get to do that deciding that's where you all come in that's on us yeah which is kind of remarkable that coach you all spend more time with our kids than parents do during the week for sure right but I I would just say I think I think I got to start with that going all right well what do I have to do let me put those rocks in first and then let me figure out if I can only get this is where my faith comes into play but it's really kind of a deal that I feel like I had to make with God of going, God, I here's the amount I can give you in my work. Can you help me learn how to make that successful? And that's not me not studying and praying before the test going, hey God I know I didn't study but can you help me make an A? No, that's going, I'm gonna give it 45, 50 hours, but that's all I can give it and still be able to do the other things I know I need to do. But can you help me learn how to be incredibly efficient with those 45 50 hours to squeeze the most amount of juice I can with in the time that I've got to do it. So I think that's the question and you know I know there's people um who've done it. I mean Dexter Wood is kind of a hero of mine the guy that started Buford's run of state championships but you know I I I know his kids and they would say he was a great dad who also spent a lot of time at work. And um I think you know there are plenty of examples of people who this won state championships and still have kids that said hey would you walk me down the aisle and you know I want to have a relationship with you. So I think it is possible but it does require a different set of skills uh for those to to make those 45 50 55 hours really uh work.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah Dexter told us about taking his son to breakfast every Friday right even though Friday night and I know his son played for him but Friday night and really all day Friday was about that football game but he made it he made sure he took his kid to breakfast every Friday and made that connection and they had that you know breakfast date and that was uh yeah you talk about one of the best right there with Coach Woods for sure. That's uh Clay we want to finish up this little discussion part and then we got a little two minute drill to do but uh we're asking every guest this year to respond to this quote from a book called The Five Graces of Life in Leadership Gary Bernison little coffee table kind of book but the statement is leadership it starts with a leader but it's not about the leader. How do you respond to that?

SPEAKER_05 37:49

Love it yeah it's it's uh to me I mean I I think about the idea that um I think a lot you know the way I would see it in the past I can speak about it in the church world in the church world the thought would be you'd pay your dues you'd work really hard when you're younger so that when you became the senior pastor you got the perks. You know you got the office the bathroom in the office the parking spot the you know people inviting you to do the stuff the um and that is um I think that's a really dangerous way to look at leadership right that if leadership is about if I can become a better leader then I will get to be in the position where I get the perks. I think a better way to look at it is I'm gonna be as faithful as I can be and if I get into a role if I become the head coach if I become the AD if I become the senior pastor if I become a partner at the law firm whatever it may be I'm not gonna see it as a reward I'm gonna see it as now I've got an additional level of responsibility. I'm gonna see it as not a reward but a responsibility that it's not a benefit it's a burden. And I think that's those are the best leaders right that see uh Frank Frank Blake's former Home Depot CEO I was talking to him about this concept um he went to our church for a while and I got to know him a little bit a remarkable leader did tremendous at Home Depot and I said you know when you became the CEO of Home Depot there had to be some perks to that right he was like you mean like the private jet and I'm like yeah he's like yeah that's one I'm like yeah that'd be kind of nice right that would be one but he was like no yeah that would be one of them but he said no I mean I when I became a CEO he said I went from having one boss to having you know a million bosses where every customer now feels like the boss somebody that I got to answer to and so it felt like more responsibility and and in a in a in a positive way not in a you know too heavy to bear kind of way but I think that's the way to see it that when you get into that yeah it's not a leadership is not about you the position is not about you it's about now I have this additional opportunity to serve even more people and that's a blessing. That's a real joy that's a benefit but uh being really weary and being careful of seeing okay I don't want to get in the position where now that I'm the boss I go like all right everybody sit down shut up listen to me and somebody go get me some coffee before I get done with this meeting or else I'm gonna fly off the handle right it's not that it's going no how can I serve how can I serve the people that uh that I've been given the opportunity to serve.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

That's really good. Really good.

SPEAKER_05 40:27

Well thanks Clay for uh doing uh the for for making this better I love that I'm just digesting that about uh you a positive burden right you the leader has uh assumed more positive burdens I I love I love that and um that just thought there uh what what I want to do before we turn it over and jump into some fun questions real briefly do you want to talk about your three books I know we talked a lot about how to lead when you're not in charge your other two books who are they directed at like what would be the audience if somebody wanted to pick up one maybe run through all three books real quick on that sure yeah that's kind of you thank you i um I released the book a couple of years ago is the third book that I had released and a I mean a really close friend of mine uh I he said something about it and said he's like how many is it I was like number three he's like oh I didn't even know that you released the second one I was like well you're not the only one because there weren't many people that bought it so I get it the first book has done pretty well but the other two have just had some humble uh humble success I would say but uh the second book's uh it's it it is it's called How to Lead in a world of distraction it's it's it's not necessarily about the distractions but the point of the book is that the distractions are the thing that gets in the way of us becoming the most emotionally healthy version of ourselves and all the data on leadership says you take two people similar background similar experience similar resume even similar skill set but when one is performing above the other one the thing that makes up the difference is uh that term emotional intelligence but it's knowing what I'm feeling knowing how to anticipate the negative emotions knowing how to deal with them knowing how to feel what you're feeling knowing how to understand the way you're gonna feel about this situation knowing how to regulate myself knowing how to regulate my own emotions knowing how to respond to yours knowing how to create calm uh a calm demeanor in the midst of chaos that requires uh a highly emotionally intelligent person and the best leaders are the most emotionally healthy people so that's what that second one was about the third one's about uh I used that Wayne Gretzky quote which is so funny to me that he gets credited with saying this I'm sure and maybe it is from him but I cited Wayne Gretzky is the source that I don't skate to where the puck is going is I don't skate to where the puck is I skate to where the puck is going to be and I tried to take that mindset that idea that concept in the in the realm of leadership the leadership is changing in a way that there the world is requiring a different kind of leader. The book was titled The Aspiring Leader's Guide to the Future that all of us are we are all trained and hardwired for a world that no longer exists. And so learning how to become the kind of leader that the future is going to demand is going to be essential if you want to have influence in the future. So I tried to go all right well what are the changes what are the ways in which leadership is changing and then how can I do whatever I can do to try to help younger leaders or even established leaders figure out how to put a game plan together to start developing into the kind of leader that the future is going to demand so that I can skate to where the fuck's going to be and not just where the fuck is and some of that means calling upon some of the timeless things right it doesn't just mean I got to learn a whole new set of things, right? But it is important to recognize hey, the world that I was wired to lead in does not exist. I've got to How do I respond to the world that is and the the world that is gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Yeah, that's great. I can't wait to read that one. I look forward to that one. And real quick, how can people connect with you closely?

SPEAKER_05 44:13

Yeah, um, my I have a website, I send a weekly newsletter out with um a bunch of leaders and trying to have fun with that and trying to create just real applicable leadership content for the control and use for themselves or even for their team. But uh claythrogins.com is the the website that my email address, which I think is my personal email address, I'm happy to um give it away because I have found my purpose on earth is to serve men and women like the ones that you all serve. So if you need anything, if there's anything I can do, my email is just clay.stroggins at gmail.com, clay.frogins at gmail.com. If I can ever do anything to serve you, to serve your district, to serve your teams, to serve your your coaches, um, it would be an honor to get to do it. So um that's how people can get in touch with me.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

All right, that's great. Yeah, hey, so we don't like to end that way. We want to end with some fun and get to know you a little bit better. We call it the two-minute drill. So uh Donna, start us with a two-minute drill. We'll finish this way, and you can get to the uh first T.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

All right, Clay, we're gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. You just tell the first thing that comes to your mind.

unknown 45:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

What was the first job you ever had ever in your life?

SPEAKER_05 45:23

Uh my sister, older sister worked at a little clothing store in Tuscaloosa called Crackeroos, and I worked in their warehouse moving uh is where I learned how to use a uh a pallet jack.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Oh, yeah. You got that skill from a grocery store. Yeah, I hear you. I speak that language, yeah. Yeah, you gotta be able to ride it when it's going down, you know, while you drive it.

SPEAKER_05 45:43

That's exactly right. That's what we would do is ride it on the way down the hill.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

All right. What is cooler, being an author or being a podcast host?

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Well, I don't my kids don't think either one of them is very cool. But I would say, I would say uh probably the pop, I mean, I like the podcast a lot. I I I that's more my style. I'm a little um writing was really hard for me because I don't I'm uh you gotta you gotta say it the way you want to say it, which that takes a lot of effort. And then you gotta live with the reality that the way you say it, it is locked in that way. There is no changing it. So I think I probably I enjoy the podcast more because it's a little more free-flowing, a little more uh flexible, which I is fits my personality a little more.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Good deal. All right, let's play a game of hot or not. So these are things that are either a hot take or they're not. So an unpopular opinion that people feel strongly about. So if you say hot, you agree with it. If you say not, you disagree. Tacos are better than burgers, no debate.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Hot. All right, hot or not. Baseball would be way more popular if they cut the season in half.

SPEAKER_05 46:51

Not I I I think there are some changes baseball can make, but I don't I don't need less games. I'll take I'll take 162 of them.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

I agree with that. All right, hot or not, concerts are overrated. You're just paying to watch someone from a mile away.

SPEAKER_05 47:11

Not I like a concert. I've had some good moments at some concert. My wife would say hot. So that's a challenge in our marriage. I don't need to work out here with y'all, but I didn't change.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yeah, we don't do most kind of mini concerts, so I'm not sure I'd be able to help you a lot. So uh I I I might enjoy them, but yeah, I think my wife's same way. Uh okay, Hot or Not Last One. Self-checkout is the worst thing to happen to shopping. Just let the cashiers do their jobs.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

Would say not. I if I were a business owner, I like the idea of it, but I know you know it's a big issue right now because there's so much uh theft that's happening because of it. Uh, but if if you're a business owner, you can have less employees, you can cut your costs, you can make more money potentially, but now they're realizing that it's creating a lot of theft. So I guess I guess as a as a former pastor, I don't like the moral dilemma that it puts people in of having to be even more challenged with stealing. So I get it. I uh I like the idea of it.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

All right, so something that we're gonna try real quick. So Brett Ledbetter uh is some a guy that we really rely on to get a lot of leadership content. He has a book uh entitled 365 Questions. So I want you to pick a number between one and 365.

SPEAKER_05 48:33

Okay. 129.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

129. When have you asked yourself, how did I not see that coming? Looking back on that ex looking back on that experience, what can you learn moving forward?

SPEAKER_05 48:51

I mean, our our oldest is uh she's now 15, but last spring she would have been 14, and she had a boy that was trying to date her. And she she walked into our bedroom one night, we were about to fall asleep, and she's like, what are our rules on dating? I mean, I I had I spent like 10 years in youth ministry, so I've been around this conversation a ton. I mean, I was I remember when I was at the age where I thought parents were so dumb because they were asking me for advice on how to parent their kids, and I was so dumb, I gave them advice on how to parent them. So that was the stage of life that I mean, so I've spent so much time thinking about teenagers and dating and how it works, but that was all 10, 15 years ago, and it sneaked up on us, and we my wife and I looked at each other being like, oh dang, we don't have a good answer to that. We said, Hey, let's give us a minute, we'll get back to you. Put a pin in that and uh yeah, put a pin in it, right? And uh, she went to bed that night, and we stayed up a little bit that night, then spent the whole next day really thinking about and the whole next week. And um, but yeah, I remember thinking, how did I not, how was I not more ready for this? I knew it was coming, but I just did not know it would be here right now. So I guess what what I need to learn about it is if I would take the to me, it's that we we talked a good bit on this in this conversation about that that skill of thinking critically. That is what the that's the power of thinking critically is having some technology-free time in your life to stop and think about what is happening in my life and what are the things that are coming up that I'm maybe not paying close enough attention to that I need to be, so that I can get some thought. You know, here's an example, an easy example would be what is the next meeting you got to go to that you're gonna, there's gonna be some decisions made. And particularly one a meeting where you're not the boss of the meeting. Is there a way you can go ahead and think about what are the conversations that are gonna be there? And can you put some time and thought into it so that when you get there, you've got you you put some time and thought into it, right? And maybe that means I need to ask some parents about this, I need to ask some student athletes about this, I need to ask some other coaches about this, so that when I get there, I got some data, I got some research, I got some anecdotal stories that I can say, hey, I'm glad we're what this came up. I've been thinking about this, and here's a couple thoughts I have based on some of the conversations I had to get ready for this meeting. I'm telling you, if you do that, you will win the meeting. And if you don't do that, if you do not prepare for a meeting, you cannot lead a meeting. You will just be participating in the meeting. But this, if you want to be a leader, particularly when you're not in charge, you've got to put the time in a head to think about the things that are coming down the pipe. But again, from a parenting standpoint, that was a swing and a miss for me. So it is just as much of a challenge for me.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

That's good. Okay, so this author wrote this uh quote the best leaders are learners. I think several people have written it, but I read it in this yellow book right here uh that I've referenced a couple times. What are you learning right now? Um Besides how your daughter should date.

SPEAKER_05 51:56

Yeah, exactly. Uh I mean, parenting, learning a ton about that. That's probably the greatest teacher right now. But I would say that um I've really enjoyed, you know, a lot of it's beginning beginning of the year is the time we're recording this, so a lot of podcasts being put out right now. Like, here are the seven trends for this year, here are the you know, seven things we gotta pay attention to in our finances and technology and you know, in the church world and sports, whatever it is. So I've listened to a number of those. That's been really good for me to think about, yeah, what are the what are the trends? What are the like I'll give you one um that I've seen a number of different places. Masculinity is a trend right now, which is kind of interesting. You know, there was a time where um, and I I don't, I don't, I think there's a toxic masculinity, that's a whole different conversation, but um you think about like Joe Rogan's podcast, like super popular podcast, and he's like, you know, he has a very masculine disposition, obviously. And that just to think about how do I tap into that? How do I pay attention to some of the negative aspects of that? But also how do I, and as a father of daughters, that's important for me, but also um how do I tap into the what what can I how can I leverage that trend to try to uh help influence people? That's probably I would say when I think about what I'm learning right now, it's thinking through what people are saying about here's what's coming this year.

SPEAKER_02 53:15

That's good. What was your first vehicle that you ever had?

SPEAKER_05 53:19

It was a white Volvo 240 DL, like a tank.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

That's good. Okay, let's finish with this. It's our trademark question today, Clay Scruggins. You've been hanging with the ADs, but let's say you can hang out with anyone. Who would that be in white?

SPEAKER_05 53:36

Man, I mean we'd probably have to say a kind of crush on those Dude Perfect guys. Our kids watch a lot of Dude Perfect. Yeah, we do too. I'd like I'd I'd like to sit down and talk to those fellas about I get what they I think I understand the concept of what they do. They've now become like larger than just trick shots. Now they're personalities. I mean, I I think you know, 10 years down the road they're they've gotten to be so famous, they're gonna be just like, oh, there's so-and-so from Dude Perfect hosting the you know New Year's Eve show kind of thing. But um I'd love to hear just the business side of how they have developed what they have developed because it is a machine that they've got. That's that tells you the stage of life that I'm in, though. If that's who I want to sit down with. Yep, yep. We watch a lot of that in our home.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

Yep, that's good. Uh oh, yeah, 100%. Yep. Clay, thank you so much for the time today. Uh, we love learning from leaders outside of our space, and you've helped us do that. Uh, and you've made us better, uh, and you've made uh our listeners better for that. We we appreciate it. So thanks again.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

Well, my uh my pleasure to get to do it. Thanks for inviting me, and I will just one more thing to the coaches out there. Number one, thank you for what you do. Uh you are investing in the lives of young people at a level that most people will never have the opportunity to do. But number two, uh that opportunity, I hope that you um can find some gratitude that you get the opportunity to do that, and I hope that you'll find some ways to take advantage of that because it is a uh quite a calling uh to be a coach for sure. So thanks for all you coaches and ADs.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Okay, so I'm not really sure where to start with this uh recap of Clay Scrogans. What a what an episode. Clay, thanks for joining us today. I knew based on social media and some things we had watched online that this was going to be an exceptional episode on leadership, and it did not disappoint. So, Clay, once again, if you're listening, we appreciate your time making us better today. Clay gave us a definition of leadership and what leaders should do. Clay uh talked about moments that are bigger than regular moments and where we need to empower some courage, those bold leadership moments, man. How powerful was that answer? Uh then just talking about creating margin, thinking about how to think critically, and what does that mean, especially in a day and age where technology does it for us? Clay got into uh some of his past, and uh I tell you, I like the question he challenged us with. Is it possible to possible to be a healthy human and be ultra successful? How do we figure out what our big rocks are and how do we put all of that in um that is our lives in a jar together? Wow. I just uh once again I could go through every single note. I thought what he left us with there at the end about the burden of responsibility that you get as you progress up the level and the ladder of leadership. That was fantastic there. How we assume more burdens, but those burdens are worth it because that's what we've been kind of called to do. That was fantastic. Thanks for uh listening today. Hopefully you got better. I imagine you're gonna go back and uh rewind and take some notes if you especially if you're driving and uh take a look at that. So, Clay Scrogans, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for being on Hang with the AD podcast and making us better. Uh we appreciate you listening. We'd love to get a rating or review. Thank you for the ones who do rate us or review us. Uh, we appreciate you taking time to uh give us feedback. And as always, we appreciate you taking time to hang with the ADs.