SPEAKER_00 0:04

We're listening to the Including Podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and let's move through leadership. Now, here are your hosts, John Matthews and Don Baker.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Today we stay closer to Hall and sit down with a great leader named Clay Smith, who serves as the senior pastor of Johnson's Fair Baptist Church in Marietta, Georgia. This is a powerhouse leadership conversation, and it is our hope that you dig in and get better today just like we did. Let's settle in and get to know Mr. Clay Smith.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Clay, we're so glad to have you join and Dynamy for this episode of Hangin with the AD. I know this episode is coming out after the new year, but uh it's being recorded during the Christmas season, which is uh generally a really busy time of the year for you. So thanks for taking down time to sit down and talk leadership with us. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me on. All right, so for our listeners, Clay Smith is the senior pastor at Johnson Ferry Baptist Church in Marietta, Georgia. I'm proud to call Clay my pastor. Uh so uh I've got to spend some time with him a lot this year. Uh Clay's a student of leadership and mentors mentors several folks in our community. So this is gonna be a good time today and uh get to hear from somebody uh maybe outside of our typical athletic administration field. But uh, I'll stop right there. I'll let Clay talk a little bit more about his journey. Uh Clay, we call it the back of the baseball card bio. So take a minute to tell us what the back of Clay Smith's baseball card would look like.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Gotcha. Well, weigh 195, 5'10. I'm hitting 310 this season. And scanning.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

That's a pretty good season there. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Especially this late in the year for a preacher, right? That's right. That's right. Uh grew up in South Carolina, pretty much in the Greenville area, and was raised there, went to the University of South Carolina for my undergrad, got married, uh, felt the call to ministry, since the call to ministry after college, went to seminary in Texas, and then we moved around a little bit, served churches in Texas and South Carolina, North Carolina, and then came to Johnson Ferry in the fall of 2019. So we've been here, I guess, about four or four and a half years in Atlanta and loving it. I'm married to my wife Tarika. We've been married for 20 years, and I have three daughters. So if you're a praying person, you can pray for me. Three daughters. I've got a junior in high school, a seventh grader, and a fourth grader. Love them, love being a girl dad, and we're just living through all the chaos like everybody else in our stage of life right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, so I we need to say Clay came in 2019 and COVID came in 2020. So we appreciate you bringing that with you, Clay.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Perfect time to come into any, I mean any leadership organization, let alone a church. Uh right. I got here six months before the pandemic, so I had six months of normalcy and then and then went crazy. But actually, it ended up um teaching me a lot about leadership. And who knows, maybe we'll we'll talk through that later. But um, glad to be here today.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Well, let's kind of let's touch on that. This first question kind of kind of deals a little bit with that. But uh we've had guests on here talk about never trusting a leader without a limp. Uh, and of course, we're not talking about a physical limp, we're talking about a metaphorical one, you know, earned uh through the ups and downs of leadership. Uh, what are your thoughts of this theory, this this idea of leadership with a limp?

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Well, that metaphor, whether your listeners know this or not, is actually a biblical one. Uh, it comes from a story in the Old Testament when a guy named Jacob who was wrestling with an angel, that's a that's an odd but fascinating story for another time. But he's he's injured in his hip and limps, and the the premise was God used a time of breaking him down to build him up into the man that God wanted him to be. So that phrase comes from the Bible, and I think that's true of every great leader, whether they are one-time cataclysmic events that you go through or failures that you had, or sometimes for a lot of leaders, and this is probably true for me, it's just been a steady drop of just dealing with some of the difficulties of leadership. You learn to be humbled, you learn to be broken in the in the most positive sense of that word, brokenness, and you learn a lot about yourself. And for me, as a follower of Jesus, I learned a lot about my relationship with God and all that. So I definitely think that any good leader is gonna have trials and and is gonna need to learn from those trials. I had a great mentor in my life that one time told me the only thing worse than pain is wasted pain. In other words, you didn't learn from the pain that you went through. And I think those are those are lessons that every leader has to learn. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah, that's really good. All right. Um, I want to want to kind of give you a quote here and let you run with it. Uh, kind of once again, that same uh leadership uh topic there. But uh it's it's it's a quote from a book I was reading, and it says, What our civilization needs most is leaders with a bold sense of adventure. What our civilization needs most is leaders with a bold sense of adventure. What does that mean to you? What what does that look like for a leader?

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Well, I don't know exactly what that author meant when he said it, but when I hear that, Josh, I I think about the sense that every leader has to have some aspect of vision. And by vision, I mean some ideal that he or she is striving for that is beyond their current circumstances. And so I think the adventure of leadership is that you're gonna have to make decisions as a leader when you you never have 100% of the facts that you'd like to have. You never have all the details squared away. You may have a lot of those, and I think it's a it's incumbent upon a leader to have as many of those details and logistics handled as possible. But the reality is a leader, you're probably always making big decisions with 70% of the information available to you. So there's always a sense of whether you call it gut instinct or following your heart, whatever you want to call it. There, there's always a level of risk involved in leading, taking people to where they've never been. And if you're honest, sometimes you're taking people where you've never been. And that requires a sense of adventure, it requires a sense of trying things you've never tried before. There has to be uh somewhat of a risk tolerance, I think, to be a great leader. And I think that is all part of the adventure. Now, let me say the shadow side to that is that there are some guys who love the idea of adventure but aren't really good at building a boat. And so, you know, it's one it's one thing, you know, to love new ideas and we could go here and go here. And but that's that can be chaotic at times if you don't also have the discipline to put before the people you're leading logistics and and administrative skill and organizational ability to get things done.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

That's funny that you say that. I I hate uh we talk about this all the time, this idea of idea guys, right? And that drive it drives me nuts. Uh you know, you know what we ought to do? You know what would be a great idea? That's great. Now, what are you gonna do? That's right. And what are we gonna do to get there? And I think that something that you you mentioned there kind of leads into my next question. In a book, uh A Failure of Nerve, one of your favorite leadership books, I understand, uh, it states people rarely can rise above the level of the maturity of their leaders or mentors. I read that as the leader sets the ceiling for the team or for the organization. Uh, for leaders who hear that, that may be concerned about the maturity level at which they're leading, uh, maybe how as a leader do we improve our leadership maturity while also being relatable to those that we lead? I think there's a the potential of a disconnect there. What would you say?

SPEAKER_03 8:12

That book, A Failure of Nerve, is one of my favorites. It's written by actually a rabbi by the name of Edwin Friedman, who was a um uh family sociology specialist. And his whole premise was that it was the emotional health or resiliency of a person that led others to health and resiliency. And one of the metaphors he uses in that book is that cancer attaches itself to unhealthy cells. And so the idea is if you can get the cells healthy, cancer has no place to live. Well, if we could then throw that analogy onto leadership, I think what he's the point he's trying to make is that there has to be a sense of emotional intelligence and relational IQ on the part of a leader to lead well. Some people hear that a leader has to be above the you know the rest of his or hers team. And to them, above might be working harder or being bigger or louder or more athletic or something like that. And and that's not exactly what it always takes to be a great leader. Sometimes the great the greatest leaders are not the ones that are the loudest. Sometimes they're the greatest listeners in the in the group, but there has to be a sense of empathy, a sense of reading the room, a sense of street smarts, a sense of walking in a room and going, What what am I bringing into this room with my presence? How are they responding to me? And how am I lifting them up to a level greater than than the where where they are now? So a lot of that is very subjective. Those are soft skills that that some leaders are. I think all leaders can develop those skills, but some are more naturally bent towards those skills than others. But I think those make the great the greatest leaders. So I think in in the world of sports, you know, coaches are famous for being, you know, demonstrative and and loud and boisterous. And we probably all have coaches like that that were that were great coaches, but a lot of coaches that are not like that, that are more soft spoken, that are more um, some might consider diminutive, but they have incredible emotional IQ. And and they're able to know what's inside of a person, know what they need, what kind of leadership, what do they respond to, what helps them to grow and succeed. And I think that's a lot of what Edwin Friedman was talking about about there. And we live in a day of such vast immaturity on the part of students, on the let's be honest, on the on the part of parents who are raising some of the students that you coach. And someone has to be the adult in the room. And coaches can play an incredible role at being that adult figure uh in the lives of of a lot of kids who don't have those adults in their life.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

It's funny. I just used that quote to Don a few minutes ago about a situation going on here, and I was like, I needed to be the adult in the room, and I don't think I was. I actually provided support for someone that might not have been making the decision I would have made, but I used that same quote and um I love that line. That's really good. Hey, you talk about leaders and the skills they need, and going back to the the quote about bold sense of adventure, that word boldness, and you said something about risk tolerance. Uh, where does boldness fall into the traits that an elite leader has? Where where is it with a priority? I mean, you've got to make some bold decisions if you're up there with the elite, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:37

I think so. I think so. I I think there are lots of definitions for leadership. My my most favorite basic definition is Webster's dictionary, which is leader, one who leads. In other words, there you go. A leader is not the one who thinks he or she's a leader, a leader is the one who's actually doing. Yeah. And and leadership happens when when you get people to do things that they would not do without you. I mean, really, that's what leaders do. The the idea is that if you weren't if you weren't leading, they would not be doing what you got them to do through your leadership. So whether that's influence or anything else. So I think the boldness of this is the idea that I am going to go first, that I am going to lead them where, let's be honest, sometimes they don't want to go, at least right now they don't want to go. What I found in leadership often is that um is that you you have to have a vision of where you think you need to be, and hopefully that vision is backed backed up by you know information that would help you to think that you're gonna be successful and to take them somewhere they've never been before. Um I I love the illustration that leadership is often like a rubber band, you know, and and so the leader is the one who stretches the band. And if it's done well, uh you bring people with you. Now, if you go too fast too hard, that rubber band will snap and and they're not with you. And so leadership is this art of of pulling and letting them come with you, and pulling and letting them come with you. And sometimes that looks like boldness, sometimes it doesn't. In our day, we have we have really put entrepreneurs on a pedestal, and we can all think of great visionaries, whether they were people like you know Walt Disney or Steve Jobs or Elon Musk or and and and yes, they are incredible entrepreneurs who have done things that we've you know benefited from. But also I think there's a lot of bold leaders who didn't necessarily come up with incredible new concepts that no one had ever thought of. Sometimes they were just bold enough to stay in the same direction for a long time. You can probably think about maybe football coaches who didn't invent some brand new offense, but they just were consistent doing the right things, uh, year after year after year after year, building a program the right way. And I think that's that's just as bold as the people who get the headlines for some brand new idea that that no one's ever thought of before. So I think boldness can look like a lot of different things in leadership.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

I think do you could you tie it also to you you mentioned being that first one to step out and and do it, whatever it may be. One of the analogies I've used for a long time, you'd be the first to jump off the high dive. You know, there's a story from when I was when I was growing up and we with a little kid, we go to the pool, and a buddy of mine, he was we were terrified of the high dive, right? All the teenagers were jumping off of it. He was the very first one to do it. And we were like, he's gonna die. He's like not gonna come up, you know. And then he came up, big smile on his face. Best day, one of my favorite memories from my childhood is that day we realized that it was okay, you know, because he stepped out and did that. Do you feel like by doing that, that's a key element to building trust within the organization because you're saying, listen, I'm gonna go ahead and step out here. If there's a hit to be taken, I'm gonna take it. And then if you come out on the other side, then everybody else, you know, follows.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Yeah, there's a big if if you come on the other side. That is very true. Yeah. Uh so let me go back to where I'm comfortable talking uh about leadership particular, and and that's um as a person of faith. So one thing I want to tie to that that I think is important is a concept of servant leadership. Now, that's not limited to you know a religious uh terminology, but as a follower of Jesus, I'm gonna quote something here. And I know not all your audience is into Jesus or faith or church or religion, so I don't want to presume that at all. But just as someone who who is a follower of Jesus, I get most of my leadership ideas from him. I think he was the greatest leader, but he's he talked about one time to his followers, he said, um he said basically you live in a world where everyone wants to talk about being first all the time. He said lording their leadership over you. And he said, I don't want you to be like that. And then he used this concept. He said, actually the first will be last. And his whole premise was if you want to be great, so I love that because Jesus is all about being great. If you want to be great, be a servant of all. And so when I think about service, servant leadership, I I think it's not always just that you know you're brave enough to go first, but it's that you're willing to take the hits for other people, that you're willing to humble yourself and do the menial tasks that others don't want to do, that you're willing to put the needs of others in in front of you. And I think in our day of selfishness, in our day where everyone's about them and their brand and their thing and me, me, me all the time, I think one of the more revolutionary things a leader can do is to think not how can I go into this room and impress people, but how can I go into this room and serve people? What's it look like as a coach to serve your team? And that doesn't mean that they are calling the shots or that you don't have a leadership role, but there are ways to serve them through your leadership that actually will build trust and camaraderie and teamwork. And I think that starts with the humility of a leader to say, hey, I'm not here so that you think I'm I'm a big deal. I'm here because I want you to be a big deal. And I want to serve you and help you to accomplish all of the great things that are in you. And and so I think that's the great part about going first that matters to me. Am I am I serving, am I the first servant in the room? I I think that's the heart of great leadership.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

I think that's great. I think it's uh definitely applies to most of us, most of the folks listening, probably because as a high school athletic director, it's a little bit different when you're DAD at Texas AM and you're hiring a new coach, you're gonna get your name in the paper. But the high school athletic director, we're not getting our name in the paper. And that's just fine, right? They're they're interviewing the football coach, the basketball coach after the game, or at the end of a great season. But that all that that coach is coming in our office, people listening are probably sitting there thinking, I just had three coaches of different sports come in my office and ask for different things. And the way we lead, we help lead to that championship or whatever it is they're trying to get is by saying yes to them and serving them in whatever way. So that's a that's a great reminder for us. Hey, we're not gonna get, we're not gonna be out front. We're gonna be sitting in here waiting for them to come ask us uh to help help their program, and that's how we can serve them. So that's that's a really good front.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

We hope not, or or if things have gone sideways.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

So they don't know your names until something went wrong.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

I don't want my name in the paper. That's right. That's exactly right. I want the football coach or the the baseball coach or somebody like that. I he their names need to be in the paper for sure. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

And one of the ways you can serve as an athletic director, I I I mean, Greg, I've never been athletic director, so I'm not here to presume you know that I know all what you're going through, but I'm just talking about basic leadership here. I would think as I if I'm an AD, how do I serve my coaches well? And certainly there's some of the basics of the job, you know, getting logistics done that you need to done get done, some of the administrative stuff that every AD does. But I would even go beyond that. I just read an interesting article in the in the Wall Street Journal, and it talked about how um employee satisfaction is at an all-time low. And and the article talked about how in the pandemic, you know, employers were giving employees more money, and if you need to stay home more, you can, and if if you need help with childcare, we'll pay for that, and then help with medical benefits, all these things employers are doing. And even in spite of that, employee satisfaction is even lower now than it was in the middle of the pandemic. And there's no exact reasons for how to fix that, but two of the things they mentioned I thought were really helpful, and I think this transcends no matter where you lead. One was as a leader, are you helping connect your employees and people work with you to their greater purpose? I think that's so huge. Yes, people work for money and they got to pay their mortgages and all that, but most people don't get up every day motivated by their paycheck. They get motivated by purpose. And am I a part of something larger than myself? And so one thing you can do as an AD in terms of serving them is help to connect the dots for them in that. Help them to see the incredible role they're playing at raising a generation of leaders, of young men and young women, and using sports as a platform to create great people and great leaders and great athletes and and who are going to contribute to our world and make it a better place. I think just that purpose is huge. And the second thing I would say, uh, this article talked a little bit was about the care of a manager or supervisor. And and I just wonder if if I were to interview you, if you're an AD, if I were to interview all the coaches who work for you, would they tell me that you care for them? Meaning, do you know about them? Do you know about their lives? Do you know their kids' names? Uh, do you know the things that make them frustrated? Do you do you know what I mean? Are you are you involved in their life at a personal level? Because the reality is that your coaches need a coach. And I think one of the things that you can do as a as an A D is to be that coaching role in their life, which doesn't look like calling plays or telling them what to do. It probably looks a lot more like, hey, let's sit down and have a conversation about life and about how you're doing and about how it can help you to achieve uh the goals and dreams that you have in your heart. I I think that's what it looks like to serve your team and your coach as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Man, that's really convict. I know Don has an old analogy about working for this head coach, and he had taught the drill and taught the the scheme and the tactic all week, and they get in the game and the kids do it wrong. And he said something like, Well, I taught him what to do. And the head coach responded, Well, he didn't learn it. And I think when I hear you say, Do you care about your people? Do you know about them? I think I Care about my people until I hear you ask those questions, and I'm like, I don't, I don't really do a good job of that. I need to go do better at that. So yeah, man, you need to punch me between the eyes. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Well, that was that was the goal I was trying to convict you throughout this whole thing, Josh. I appreciate it. It's like the preacher stepping on your toes, right? I mean, it happens every Sunday again. He just did, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Uh let me say this too. I mean, because I we we deal with parents, probably the same parents that you deal with in schools. I mean, these kids today are going through a lot, and coaches do a lot more than just calling plays and teaching basketball or football or baseball skills. In some cases, they almost become like second parents to these kids who need adults in their life to help them navigate some of the complexities of life and some of the difficult challenges they're facing at home many times. And I know that coaches probably feel overwhelmed at times because they they wish, let's be honest, I was just talking about basketball. But the reality is if if you're signing up to be a coach, you're signing up to coach the whole person, not just the basketball side of their life. And I I don't see that getting any uh less so in years to come. I think that's only going to grow. And so instead of seeing that as a burden that a coach has to bear, I would see it as an incredible opportunity that you have to coach this student, not just in the sport, but in life. And so if you're a coach in that way, uh you need to make sure that you're coached, that someone's pouring into you, that someone's investing in you to those things that you can then share with others.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, good stuff. Really good stuff. Let's do another quote. I want I want to hear your thoughts on excellence. So uh horse Joltsey, and you can you you can say the quote, you can probably use his uh his uh dial his um accent. I can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Is that the Ritz Carlin guy?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yes, sir. That's right, that's right. So um on a on another podcast, we heard him talk about uh excellence, and his quote was excellence is not an accident. So you talked about your lead, your your definition of leadership. Talk about your definition of excellence and how does one attain it and sustain it?

SPEAKER_03 24:16

That's a great question. I don't know if I have a great answer for that. I mean, I think when he means excellence, he's talking about those little things that create an extraordinary experience when you stay at a Ritz-Carlton. And so I think then you have to ask as a leader, well, what's that look like for my industry? You know, as someone who leads a church, I think excellence for us looks like doing ministry really well. And by that I mean that things are planned well, that things are organized well, that we have leaders in place who know what they're doing, that we have a bigger purpose than just putting on events of why we're doing what we do every week. And for us, we know a lot is hanging in the balance because we're talking about people's lives and their souls and so many things like that. So I think I think excellence is tied to effectiveness more than anything else. Sometimes people think about excellence merely as efficiency, but I think it's actually more tied to effectiveness. Are you so to me, like what's an excellent football team? Well, it's a team that's accomplishing the goals that it's set for itself. I think that's what an excellent football team is. What's an excellent lacrosse team? Well, it's probably a lacrosse team that's accomplishing the goals that it has set for itself. So then you as a leader have to sit down and go, what does excellence look like in my particular team? What are the goals that we've set out for itself and how do we accomplish those things? And as a leader, you're enforcing the things over and over again again. I I think sometimes excellence, particularly coming from a guy who leads a roots Carlton, can look like the finer things of life. That's how people interpret excellence. And I think that is not as helpful to me at least as just thinking more about excellence meaning effectiveness.

unknown 26:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Wow, that is really good. Now, again, staying on this topic of leading and in and taking over leadership. Uh leading a great successful leader is tricky uh and often uh really doesn't have a high success rate. You never want to be the man that follows the man, right? I I I say that all you want to be the man that followed the man that followed the man kind of thing. Now, the church situation that you were part of was probably different than a school setting where seldom are two leaders given the opportunity to overlap. But regardless, what strategies would you give a leader who is succeeding a popular, highly achieved, outgoing leader?

SPEAKER_03 26:38

For context, let me explain this to your leaders. Yeah. Johnson Ferry, the church that I pastor, was started about 40 years ago by a founding pastor by the name of Bryant Wright. And Bryant was here for 38 years as the pastor. So I came in as the second pastor, meaning it's the only transition they've ever been through. They'd never hired another pastor before they hired me. Uh Bryant is somewhat of a legend in this area, you know, well-known, great track record, 38 years of just solid high character, no scandals, no, you know, anything that would somehow um, you know, be a be a uh something bad about him. So, all that being said, when I first was contacted about coming here to Johnson Firi, this you know, large, big, big church with the founding pastor that everyone loves, my third first thought is man, no way. Like, I don't want to do that. Like, and and the the illustration I would use is not I don't want to be uh Ray Perkins. Ray Perkins, yeah. Nobody wants to be Ray Perkins. Well, that's yeah, it's a little throwback. You know, Ray Perkins, the guy who followed Bear Bryant, most people never heard of him. You know what I mean? Like you won't you want to be Gene Stalins, you want to be the guy after the guy. He comes back and he's a national championship. So I thought, man, I don't want to be that. Well, after a lot of reflection and talking to people running through the process here in prayer, felt like this is where I needed to be, and God was leading us here. So we came here. Now I benefited greatly from an outgoing leader who was very humble and very intentional about helping me to succeed. So let me just pause there and say if there's someone here who is at the end of their career or know that their time is coming to a close, I would really think about thinking about how do I finish well. And finishing well is not just how do you hold your head high as you run through the finish line. The finishing well is how do you pass the baton well to that next runner. And a lot of a lot of outgoing leaders don't do that well. And let's be honest, the outgoing leader holds most of the carts. I mean, they've been running around that track. Let's just stick with this analogy of you know, running around a track. So they've been running around that track, holding that baton, and they know they're getting near the end of the lap, and that other runner they can hear coming behind them, and and you know that you're supposed to pass that baton off, but a lot of a lot of outgoing leaders struggle to hand that baton off to that other leader. So if you're an outgoing guy, you need to work really hard at transitioning well and helping the next man or woman succeed in your role. I think as someone like me who's an incoming leader, there's a couple things that are really important for me. One is that I think it's really important that you try your best to honor the person that you followed. That doesn't mean that you agree with everything they did or you would have done it the same way, but you need to find as much as you can about that person, their leadership that is honorable, and you need to honor them publicly. I think that's really important for organization. I would say in the church setting, it was important for them to see Bryant and myself together and for us to have a friendship and a camaraderie, and for there to be a mutual sense of honor of him appreciating me as a new guy, me appreciating him for all that that he has done here as a great leader. So I think that's the first step is honor. I think number two, and this may be different in a church setting than coaching, you know, a team or something, but I would really go slow on changes you want to make and spend the bulk of your first season learning and getting to know the people involved in your organization. I I know in sports it's probably different because as a fan of sports, you know, I see coaches and they come in and day one, it's it's boom, boom, boom, you got to make all these changes because hey, nowadays you get like such a small window of time to win. And so maybe that's a different deal altogether. But in a in a church setting, it's very important that we make changes because we need to make changes, but we do them methodically, and it's done with a lot of love for the people that will need to undergo these changes. So I want to spend a lot of time diagnosing things before I make a prescription. I remember one of my first meetings at when I came here to Johnson Ferry. I was in a meeting with some of our leaders, and they all want to know, you know, what's your vision? What are we gonna do? What's gonna change? And I told the guy, I was like, Well, let's just hit timeout. I've been here like 19 seconds. So let me I said, could you could you imagine if you went to your doctor and uh they just started writing you prescriptions before they took time to like look at your body and run some tests? And and I said, like a doctor, I I need time to just watch and learn and listen and talk to people, how are things done here? And then and then when the time was right, then I began to kind of chart a new course. But I would always go much slower than you probably want to go and spend a lot more time investing in the people and loving the people. Um, so that when you do make those big, bold, adventurous changes that we're talking about, you have some some trust that you've built up in the people that that you're leading. Now, in my particular situation here, I had COVID, which probably accelerated some changes um simply because when you walk through a crisis like that, you know, you become the leader very quickly uh because they they they want to know two things who's in charge and where are we going? Right. And so you you kind of you take that man along pretty quickly. So I probably was able to accelerate.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

I'll interrupt too, Clay. Sorry. A lot of times that previous leader wants to hang around, and I don't think in this case it was gonna happen, but COVID ran it, it made sure the previous he didn't want to be part of that. Hey, I'm out of here. And if I'd have been the previous leader, I'd have done the same thing. Hey, I'm gone. We saw it in coaching, we saw it in teaching principals. They were out, they were gone. So not my problem. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

I'll say this about COVID. I mean, look, nobody wants to go through that again. I don't, you don't, but but let me say this. Um, it was invigorating as a leader, yeah. Because leaders love to solve problems. And in COVID, there was a bunch of problems. Now, that doesn't mean I loved everything about COVID or I want to go back to that time. I I don't, I don't want to ever repeat that again. But it was invigorating to get up every day and to think about what are the challenges in front of us. And I won't call it fun, but it it was adventurous. And and I think as a leader, you you have to have a sense of there's opportunity here. Every I I forget who said this quote, so I'm sorry I can't attribute it to the particular particular person, but I love this quote. Every problem is an opportunity in disguise. So when you when you get into any kind of um leadership post and you see a bunch of problems, see all of them as opportunities in disguise. And uh and I think that just frames a more positive outlook about what you're trying to do and how you go about doing it.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, that's good. Great quote there. Um let's talk about a word you really like. Um and you liked, I I think I say you really like it's a part of your your DNA, your your leadership style, and it's also part of our church, right? But I think it uh I ran across across this and I think it uh it's something you'll enjoy. Uh so I'm gonna read it and you just give us your thoughts on it. It it talks about belonging versus teamwork. And it says belonging is separate from teamwork. Teamwork requires collective effort toward a common goal. Belonging requires collective respect, security, support, and acceptance. Teamwork exists when a teammate helps you on the field or at work. Belonging exists when you know the teammate is willing to help you in life. Teams can work together without feeling a sense of belonging, but teams can't reach their highest potential without belonging that results from human belonging.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

I I've never I've never pitted belonging against teamwork. So I'd have to think about that a little bit. I I see them as somewhat synonymous. Maybe I'm thinking about great teams that have a sense of belonging to them.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I think I think what hit me about it was and uh maybe this a uh a jog you your your start there. Okay. We talk a lot about teamwork as coaches, as athletic directors. Hey, we got to be a team, we got to be a team, we got to be a team. But we probably don't know what we're talking about. We probably don't we don't draw a good picture of what we're talking about there when we really are talking about we want everybody to feel a sense of belonging on the team. And then we can reach that highest potential, but we we we don't get below maybe that surface level of what teamwork or what a team really is because we don't paint a good picture.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

So well, maybe it goes back to what I said earlier, Josh. Yeah, I think it's easier, it's easy in sports to think about your players are there because of what they contribute to um to your um production on the court or the field. I mean, like you know, you you you have you have tryouts, you take the best athletes that you can, they're on the team because they're better than the rest, and they're contributing, you know, to to what it helps to be successful, right? So I think it I think so there's there's that. I I think the next level though is is kind of what I said earlier. You you have to find a way to appreciate them beyond what they produce on the field.

unknown 36:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

And and I think that's where the belonging comes from. So my kids um they don't have to earn my love for them. Right? Like my my love is not on a scale with my kids so that when I say I kids, I think about my daughters. Like I don't go home and I don't think, well, did you clean up your room today? Did you uh do your homework today? Did you do your chores today? Because if you didn't, then uh I don't I don't love you as much as I did yesterday when you did all of the same. Well, of course you would never do that. No no good father would do that. But I I love them. I love them for who they are. Um now when they they don't do the things they're supposed to do, those are opportunities for them to grow and opportunities for us to have conversations and sometimes discipline about making sure that they're doing things they're asked to do. But but my love for them is not based on how they perform for me. And so I think if I was a coach in sports, you may not use the word love. I mean, some people like or don't don't like that. We kind of throw that word around a lot today, but um I I do think that they need to feel valued by you beyond just what they produce for your team. Uh and I think that's where belonging comes in. Um, do you matter to me as a person? Uh do I feel valued uh to you as a person? I think those are the kind of things that that matter, and quite honestly, I bet those are the players that end up playing harder for those coaches. Um agreed. You know, when when you have when you have reunions of teams, you know, some team wins a championship and they get together 20 years later and they're all old and fat and you know, coming together and sharing stories and stuff. And they share stories about the coach. It's it's interesting how they don't they usually don't talk about stats on the field like baseball teams. They don't talk about like their batting average or their OPS or what their winning record was. They probably talk a lot about relationships and things their coach said to them and and maybe ways that he or she went out of the way, you know, to serve them. It's it's just that that's kind of stuff that matters to people. And so we if we know it's gonna matter 20 years from now, why not make it matter now? And why not lead in such a way they feel a sense of belonging with you right now?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Man, that's a great, great one line right there. If it's gonna matter 20 years from now, why not make it matter now? That's one of the best lines ever. So, hey, we want to finish our conversation, then we'll do a little two-minute drill, have a little fun. But um, something new we're finishing our conversation with this year. It's a double fill in the blank. It's right up your alley. It's gonna be good. Double fill in the blank. And we're we're asking every guest this year in 2024 uh how they would how they would uh to fill in these blanks. You can take it anywhere you want, serious, funny, whatever you want to do. Uh the and I'll say the question, I'll say it twice so you think about it for a minute. The best way to become better at blank is to become better at blank. So the best way to become better at blank is to become better at blank. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Oh man. Uh the best way to become better at blank is that what's the second part? To become better at blank. Okay, gotcha. Um, here's one. I think the I think the best way to be better at marriage is to be better at being married. All right. That's good. Uh I say that because I mean a lot of your listeners are probably married or get married or something. Right. And you know, we live in a day where a lot of marriages don't last very long and people struggle in their relationships. And uh and I think I think marriage is uh is a lifelong commitment uh towards one another and requires constant um refining and and and and getting better and admitting that you're sorry and growing and those types of things. I I think a lot of people get married and they're in that kind of initial like lovey-dovey stage, and everything's awesome, and we're never having any problems, and then they hit their first set of problems, and um they're not really doing the the things to help to help get through it. They just think well, something's wrong, or something's wrong with them, or you know, whatever. I don't feel love like the way I used to, these types of things. But marriage is so much deeper than these kind of superficial feelings, it's a commitment that you make towards the long-term interest of of a partner, and um and and I think it's just important that the best way to to be married, like for my marriage, is for me to get better at being married and for that to be a lifelong project. And for a lot of your folks who are married, I mean you're not gonna be a coach forever, you're gonna retire one day. Um you're an athlete, you're not gonna be an athlete forever, but odds are you're gonna be with this person for most of your life. And um, and you need to work work on being being the type of person that when you retire from sports, it's okay because it's the best time of your life to get to be with that person most of most of your days. And so I think that requires work and perseverance, and and um marriage isn't always easy, like we like we think it is in the movies. It takes work, so that's what I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Man, that's you you don't know how uh applicable that is to the folks listening to Don to me, because you know, and you heard me say recently at a function um that my wife and I were at, um, just how lucky I am to have a great coach's wife, now AD's wife. It's the same, you know, same, same in the one.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

Um, but I think let me if I let me if I could add this.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

I I I've never been a coach, and my guess is most of y'all have never been a pastor.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Um, but I bet one thing that we share in common is that we work a heck of a lot of hours. And you're I I'm at the church all the time, uh, you're at the ball field or the school all the time. And so one challenge I'd give to your coaches, particularly for those who are married and those who and may even have kids, is um you need to be really intentional with with the time that you spend with your spouse and and never take that for granted. Never think that just because you're a coach that they're always great with you being gone that much, or those are those are constant challenges you've got to wrestle with. There's no easy answer to that. I mean, to be successful, it takes a lot of time, let's be honest. I mean, it it does no shortcuts around that. But I you need to make sure that your spouse is not getting your leftovers. They they need to get the best of you. And if if it comes to you know, push comes to shove, I I hope that your wife, if if I'm talking to a man, I hope that your wife is getting the best of you instead of your team getting the best of you. I hope that she's not getting your leftovers, or vice versa. If you're a woman who's a coach, I hope your husband's not getting your leftovers. I hope he's getting the best of you. And I think that that is no one's responsibility other than yours to figure out, hey, what is the best of me look like? And is my spouse getting that from me? Maybe not every day, none of us are perfect, but most of the time is that true. And um, and I think it's hard work. I think the whole idea of balance is a complete waste of time. I don't think there's any such thing as uh work-life balance. I don't even know what that means. Yeah, lifestyle, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Well, it's just it, yeah, it I mean, no one's life is balanced. I've never met anyone whose life is balanced. It's it's uh it's about dynamic tension and it's about being where you are. So are you present where you are? You know, do you go home and you stay on your stinking phone scrolling through social media the whole time and you've already been away from your house for 70 hours that week, you know, or are you present going, no, I'm gonna be all in with my family when I'm home and with them and invested in their life. And I think those are the decisions that you've got to figure out how to make as a coach and as a person uh to give them your best.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

I think what you said there, I and I was gonna point it out you talk about you your spouse getting the best of you, but your your job, your role. Also, those people that you're serving get the best of you. It's not impossible. You don't have one, you know, uh uh you don't have to pick who gets the best. We've been called to do what we're we're called to do, right? You can be your best on Sunday morning or doing a pastor role during the week. And then when you go home, you can give your wife the best husband that she deserves. Same thing for us, right? It's not like you have to pick, but you have to be intentional about it, right? And once again, you preaching at me, stepping on my toes.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

I yeah, but I let me say this. I mean, I'm talking to me too here. Yeah, I will say when you're in a leadership role, you get a lot of accolades and a lot of people who do what you tell them to do, and a lot of people who praise you for being a leader and that kind of thing. And it's really easy to start reading your own press clothing, and then you you go home and expect that from your spouse. And it's not your spouses and kids' job to tell you how awesome you're you are all the time. It's not their job to do everything you tell them to do all the time. Like like you're their coach. So I think I think the best of you also have to sit down and go, okay, what what does my spouse need from me? And how can I serve them in a way that helps them to feel loved, feel honored, and feel valued. Um and I and I think that's harder to do because our ego is not on the line like it is at work. So that's where you have to do the internal stuff of just reflecting who who am I, what's the best of me look like, and how can I give that to the people that I cherish the most.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

I'm just gonna let that sit there and let people chew on that. That's really really, really good. Um, you know, you uh you answered one question we asked you about how do you how do you become uh or how do you take over and transition after a a longtime great leader, and we got two for one in that answer because you preached to the and I used the word preach lightly there, you preach to the outgoing person and the incoming person. So that was a buy one, get one free, and then you just finish with uh just some gold there. So uh clay, you made us better leaders, better, better spouses, better people today, and we appreciate that. So we're gonna do a little two-minute drill, have a little fun. Don starts us with this. Hopefully, you enjoy this. This will be a little lighter side of who you are.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

Okay, Clay, we're gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. You tell us the first thing that comes to your mind, okay? All right. What was the first job you ever had ever in your life?

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Working at uh horse farm, mucking out stalls and uh riding horses.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Nice. All right, if you could time travel, would you visit the past or the future?

SPEAKER_03 46:32

The past. Uh, because I already know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Well, well played. Uh all right, let's play a little game of over-under. So these are things that in your opinion, they are overrated or underrated. So you just say over under. If you want to elaborate, you can't. So over-under, having multiple pets.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Uh over. Over. I mean, I I don't mind pet I got pet. I have a dog, I have a cat, but that's about all I want. More than that, I'm still like I have a farm. So we'll go with two. All right, over under grilled cheese sandwiches. Underrated. I mean, you got three basic ingredients that are spectacular, you know, when you put them together. So I'm I'm a I'm all in on grilled cheese sandwiches. Just great. Good deal. Over under NASCAR. Over, man. Like, yeah. I I mean I I love cars, um, but just going in a big circle, I I'm not into that. And I grew up in South Carolina. I mean, I grew up not too far from Darlington, all that, but yeah. I'm not I'm not a NASCAR guy. Not my thing. All right.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Last one, over under. Vest. What? Vest. Like a like a sweater vest. Oh, vest. Vest, yeah. Uh Don gives me hard words because he knows I'm from Winder and I can't say them.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

So I know you love uh I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go under. I I'm a big vest fan, but I also know that if you like vests, it means that you're old and getting older. So I feel a little ashamed saying under, but I'm I'm just gonna I'm gonna own it. I like I like Vests. I'm all in on the Vest.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

He's a Vest guy, ladies and gentlemen. Um okay, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Oh man. Uh best piece of advice I've ever received. Um, but uh so I had a boss I once worked for that gave me in a performance review one year, he said, you know, Clay, the thing I found about you is that you're easy to talk to and you're hard to get to know. And his point was like you don't you don't let people in very easily. So that that sent me on a journey of just figuring out what he meant by that, and and I actually learned a lot about myself, about some of the things I didn't share with people, and and uh and it's been a great process just kind of being more open and free about my feelings about things and about sharing my things I'm excited about, things that scare me to death, things that frustrate me, and I feel like I'm a better, more healthy person for that comment that stung when he said it to me probably 15 years ago. So I've always uh I've always thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yeah, a lot of a lot of lessons right there in that one self-reflection and letting people get to know you. I mean, there's a lot of stuff there. All right, so you found our podcast through a guy named a former guest, Dr. Michael Lindsay, who is great, college president. Um, he talked about leadership. One of the things he uh I had in my notes and I went back and looked just to see maybe what you might have heard. Um, and it's a quick question. You kind of already answered it, but I want to ask it anyway because uh I wanted to make that connection to Dr. Lindsay. Leadership is about blank. Just one fill in the blank here. Leadership is about uh about leading. Simple advantage. So simple.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

What a simple guy. I'm a simple I'm a simple guy, man. You know why make it this complicated? It's about getting it done. Leading.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Totally agree. Uh, if there was a draft for your favorite candy bar, which one is your first round draft pick?

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Oh uh I'm I'm going, I mean it's classic. I'm going Snickers. I mean, it has everything. It has chocolate, nuts, nougat. I don't even know what nougat is, but it has it and it's pretty delicious. Yeah, I mean it's like it's it's the I mean if you were stranded in the woods, you could survive a long time with a couple Snickers bars. So I'm I'm I'm I'm Snickers.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

All right, that's a good one. Okay, so we'll finish with kind of our trademark question today. Clay Smith, you've been hanging with the ADs, but if you could finish or if you could hang out with anyone, who would that be and why?

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Uh that answer probably changes depending on whatever I'm reading at the time. So I on this this last year I've been on a bit of a Winston Churchill kick for whatever reason. I've read a couple books about him. I really respect him as a leader, as a speak as an orator, uh speaker. And uh so I I right now I would love to sit down and have have dinner uh with with Winston Churchill.

unknown 51:16

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Very good. Clay, thank you so much for the time today. It's always great to learn from leaders outside of the interscholastic space. Uh, and we're very grateful for the time. So thanks again.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

I'm not really sure where to start on how to wrap up that conversation right there. Clay is a great friend, he's a great pastor, he's an amazing pastor preacher, as you could tell out there. Uh he's an amazing leader. He has great depth uh of wisdom and experience. Uh he's well read, obviously, and he uh just has a a depth for making for how to make others better and what to say when, and just you you just saw it right there packaged up in an hour uh with him talking about leadership, him taking quotes and and taking them to certain areas to make us better leaders and people. And man, just what an amazing conversation. You know, he talked about for coaches, how do you coach the entire person? Uh, as Don said after we got off the call, that may be the only interview question you need when you're hiring coaches. How do you coach the whole person? And then when they answer that question, interview over, we'll figure out if you're right for us or not. Uh, but then talking about do you care about your people that you lead? Do you care about the people on your team? That one hit me between the eyes because I think I do, but I think if I'm honest with myself, I could do better. How are you lifting people up? How do you serve my coaches? How do I serve my coaches well? Not just how do I serve them, how do I serve them well. And then the last part uh before we got into the two-minute drill, just a uh answering those questions about marriage. I don't think Clay understood the pointedness that his answer uh uh was for us athletic directors. He mentioned it about being a pastor and always being on, carrying the burden of so many others. We do that as coaches and as athletic administrators. We carry the burden of a school, of coaching staff, of our players and family. Uh, but we also have to give our best to our family, to our spouses, and that's important. Uh and he he made a great uh uh answer and conversation there. Just gave us great wisdom. Clay, thanks for joining us. Clay Smith, senior pastor, John Safari Baptist Church. Uh, whether you're a church person or not, as he mentioned, I think you could be a better person and a better leader just from this conversation. So we hope you enjoyed it. We'd love to know what you thought. Uh leave us a rating or review on the podcast platform you're listening from right there. We'd love to hear from you. Leave us some notes, send us a uh a tweet or a text or or whatever. We'd love to hear from you on one of those social media platforms. And as always, thank you for spending your time hanging with EAD.