SPEAKER_00 0:04

You're listening to the Hanging with the AD podcast, where we break down hot topics in athletic administration and lessons learned through leadership. Now, here are your hosts, Josh Matthews and Don Baker.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

There's a saying that if you're the smartest person in the room, you need to find another room. Well, we found a much smarter room today as we sit down with Jennifer Baker, who serves as the Associate Vice Provost and Director of Athletics and Recreation at Johns Hopkins University. A military veteran, Jennifer speaks to how her service has benefited her and her role as well as other leadership lessons that she has learned along the way. Let's settle in and get to know Jennifer Baker.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Jen, we're so glad to have you joining Donami for this episode of Hanging with the AD. As we just spoke about, you have a very busy weekend. So thanks for taking time to join us today.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Absolutely. Thanks again for the opportunity to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

For our listeners, Jennifer Baker serves as the Associate Vice Provost and Director of Athletics and Recreation at Johns Hopkins University. Jen has served in this role since 2019. And prior to leading the athletic department there at Johns Hopkins, she worked at Under Armour and Cornell University. We'll talk a little bit about that. As a student athlete, uh, it's also worth noting Jen played lacrosse at the Naval Academy and went on to be a pilot in the Navy. But we'll stop right there and let her tell us a little bit more about her journey through the world of athletics. Jen, we'd like to start the show with what we call the back of the baseball card bio. So could you take a minute and tell us what the back of your baseball card might look like?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

It's been a minute since I've looked at a baseball card. So born and raised uh right up the road from where I sit currently. Um so I am local to Baltimore. Uh worth noting that I am the daughter of a Johns Hopkins graduate, the niece of a Johns Hopkins graduate, and the granddaughter of a Johns Hopkins graduate. And yet I did not go there. Uh so did not grow up in a military family, but very much fell in love with the idea of service when I was in high school and have always been drawn to challenge. Um, so I found out that the Naval Academy existed uh early on um in high school, basically the summer before my freshman year, and became singularly focused on going there and becoming a pilot. Um, frankly, because I liked the challenge of it. And it seemed it was something that not everybody could do. So um so went to went to Navy, um, had I'm gonna say an awesome four years there in an aggregate. It was an awesome four years. Um, not every day of those four years was how I would characterize awesome, but um definitely delivered on the experience I wanted and then had the opportunity to serve in the Navy afterwards um as an officer. And I served three years uh as a pilot, got medically disqualified from flying, and then did two more tours um as an engineer. So there's a very small group of officers called civil engineer core officer and um spent my time in the Navy. It was awesome. Um I loved it. I made the personal decision to get out, which at the time was a family decision, and um was frankly kind of lost after that because that had been so much of my identity. And I'll spare you all the nitty-gritty details. But long story short, I wound up coaching high school lacrosse because I was just I loved the sport. I wanted to get back to it, um, really fell in love with coaching, decided I was gonna go back to grad school and sort of start my life over in a lot of ways, chose to go to Cornell, thought I was done with sports and my first semester there, had the opportunity to become the volunteer assistant lacrosse coach with Women's Lacrosse Up at Cornell, which then through that experience taught me that I didn't want to be a career coach. However, I really loved what happened between 18 and 22 as a result of participation in sport, and started to figure out that I thought I really wanted to be an athletic director because I could impact the broadest number of student athletes without being singularly focused on sort of one team. And it felt like the right fit for me, but I just had no idea how I was going to pull that off because it's hard to do later in life. Um, and was very fortunate, had an awesome AD at the time who gave me an opportunity after I graduated from grad school to stay at Cornell and work there in an athletic capacity. And so I started there, spent three years there, was done with upstate New York. And uh no offense to the upstate New York listeners. Uh it's beautiful for three months out of the year, but it was the other nine that really became tough for me. Uh, I'm just I'm not mentally tough enough to handle that. And so um wanted to relocate back down to this area. Under Armour offered me a great opportunity, athletically related company, had a great experience there and realized pretty quickly that I really wanted to be on campus. And so had an awesome opportunity to join the staff at Hopkins in 2017, never thinking I would be the AD there, but still wanting to become an AD. And here we are in my fifth year as AD at Hopkins. So you never know where you're gonna end up, um, but it's it all makes sense as I reflect back on it, and I wouldn't trade any of it.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

That's a nice little timeline there. Now let's jump right in and talk about what is arguably the most difficult aspect of leadership, and that is hiring the right people to join your team at the right time and place for your department. Uh, you recently posted a video online of your introducing the the new football coach there at Hopkins, and I was struck at how you did it. You stated in that post, and I quote, most important thing we do as ADs is hire coaches, and this was a good reminder of why. And you visited the the team at a conditioning session, it looked like, uh, and you pulled out a list of qualities that the team said they wanted to see in their new coach. And you were very intentional about letting the team know that it was that list that turned into your list as you began to search for that next coach. Why is it important for you to make that student voice a priority in your search? And is this something that athletic leaders really need to kind of lean into a little bit more often, even in an unprecedented age of player movement, not only at the collegiate level, but we even see it at the high school level. Why should we keep student voice a main priority?

SPEAKER_03 6:09

That's a great question. Um, so that was I'm glad you saw that video. That was really fun. To full disclaimer for anybody who's seen it, they didn't tell me I had to hire a biomedical engineering major, but when you do get to hire a biomedical engineering major from Johns Hopkins as your head football coach, it's worth celebrating that.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Uh 100%.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Yeah, totally agree. Because I told him, I said, you might be the only one. You're a one-of-one in Unicorn. That's right. No college football coaching. Um, so for me, it's a couple things. One, I think the most important thing we do is hire coaches because coaches are are the stewards of our greatest resource, which are our student athletes. There is no college athletics without student athletes. And my personal philosophy as AD is that we have to deliver to them this transformative experience. That is our responsibility. We are educators in that regard. And so I have to be very thoughtful about who I bring in. And it's never, there's lots of people out there who can win games, but realistically speaking, the only way you can win games is by investing in and developing student athletes. And if they feel like they have a seat at that table and I understand what their priorities are, I have a much better chance of making sure the connection is right for a coach to be able to unlock that potential. And I recognize, you know, the athletes who are in the room when a coach is hired are not going to be the same athletes that are in the room four years later. But I listen for themes. Um, and I also layer on myself the things that are a priority for me, both from for anyone who would be on my staff. Um, but then there are also nuances to every role. Um, but here's why I think it's so important, other than sort of what I stated, and this really goes to the macro of college athletics right now. There are a lot of challenges industry-wide, right? The kind of traditional model is being tested over and over again. And I feel like part of why we landed where we've landed is because we didn't include student athlete voices in our evolution to the extent that we should have. Um, and so with that said, it's really important for me. If I exist to serve them, and I do believe that I do, I don't ever want to be in a vacuum or frankly arrogant enough to assume I know what they need or what they want. Um, so it hasn't worked. It for every head coach search I've done, um, I have had student athlete involvement at a minimum for them to frame out to me what their priorities are in the hire. And I always ask them, like, what are your non-negotiables? Because I always have a set of those two. And in the best case scenarios, there's a whole lot of overlap.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Um but then from there, um, where it's made sense, we've actually had student athletes participate in the interview process. So they get some FaceTime with the candidates. Um, and I'm grateful that I have um student athletes that I can trust in that capacity and will maintain confidentiality and in all of that. So, and they have really valued it. Um, it and you're much you're much more likely to get buy-in for whomever you did hire if you understand they they've had a chance to engage with student athletes and you have that feedback. Um, so and anytime I have athletes meet with coaching candidates in particular, I never tell them, I don't want to know who you want me to hire. I want to know what you see as sort of the upside and the downside for every candidate. Um, and then I look for those themes.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah, that's really good. Um, I had a college assistant uh conference uh director as a parent, and we had to hire a coach in uh what his uh the sport that his student athlete competed. And he said, When are you gonna let the students tell you what they want? When are you gonna let the what students are you gonna let get involved? And that was foreign to me at the high school level. It's like, wait a minute, was students on the panel? And I uh I still haven't done it, but it does make a lot more sense. And you make a good point of the the traditional models need to get challenged a little bit. And um, you know, the one thing in the high school, you just mentioned it. I think at the high school level, it's even harder to find that mature student athlete who can handle the confidentiality, but that's probably me just being scared to do something different. So I think that's a good challenge to us.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Well, it's I mean, it's worth considering, right? Um, and in in our scenario, as I imagine in yours too, there are a lot of cases where we are hiring sitting head coaches from other institutions. So I always frame it to them as would you want, would you want to find out your coach was leaving or involved in an interview process like through Twitter or, you know, because somebody else contacted you? And these they know they don't, they wouldn't want that. And so I've been really grateful that they have respected that and tried to be respectful of other team student athletes as well. Um, it's a little different when you're hiring an assistant um, because I think there's just a general expectation that assistants will move on at some point. But definitely when you're when you are considering sitting head coaches from other institutions, um, you have to the confidentiality piece is critical. Um, and I don't ever want to compromise somebody's confidentiality.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Right. Yeah, that's really good stuff. Hey, let's stay on that uh idea of academics. And you you mentioned the hiring a biomedical engineer as your head football coach. I think that's uh an awesome uh thing to do there. Let's talk about balancing athletics with academics. No better place than that than Johns Hopkins, right? Uh, you were obviously attracted to Johns Hopkins, Johns Hopkins situation as you left the business sector to take on this athletic leadership role there in 2019. Um, as you mentioned, uh, we didn't know this, but as you mentioned, you had a little pedigree to Johns Hopkins, which uh probably helped out as well. Uh, but based on our research, Johns Hopkins is a top 10 worldwide university when it comes to combining research output, the academic side, the non-academic reputation, which could be the um athletic side, and the impact of notable alumni. How do you balance the priorities that come uh with students and coaching coaches being a part of a highly regarded and rigorous academic institution while also putting teams on the field that finish collectively in the top one to three programs annually at the D3 level at which y'all compete?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Is a question I wrestle with every day. There's no magic formula, so let's just start there. But I think when you consider kind of who is a Hopkins student traditionally, I think there's a lot of um, there's a lot of goodness there that can be harnessed both athletically and certainly academically. So for starters, for me, I align most with institutions that really place a high premium on the academic experience of student athletes and who don't ever want the athletes to feel like they have to compromise that. Um, and so we are a place, and you know, previously I was at Cornell and back to my own undergraduate experience, we are a place that values both. And I don't think, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. So for me, I was obviously John Hopkins. Well, when I chose to go back there just to work, it was for three reasons. One is the academic reputation of the institution and just the personal values alignment I have with the mission of higher ed. Two is the excellence of the athletic programs. Um, and three, they had an outstanding AD at the time that I really wanted to work for because I really respected her. We knew each other um from kind of from afar. We had some interactions while we were both within the Ivy League. And I was like, I want to work for her and I want to learn from her. Um, and so when I made that move, what I quickly, you know, you get to know the student athletes there, you get to know the coaches there. And it's a place where it's difficult to find the balance. Um, but we make it very clear that if there is conflict, academics take priority. And that's just who we are. Um, so when we meet with recruits and talk to recruits, the answer is you can major in whatever you want. We're never gonna ask you not to take a class. We understand that sometimes labs, you know, go long and conflict with practices. We'll figure that out. And I have the right coaches on board who are bought into that, who work with our student athletes in that regard. But then I want to talk about the student athlete piece because the other thing I tell recruits, and this I think is an important one, is Hopkins is not the easy place to be, right? Um, there's incredible opportunity there for those who want to pursue it. However, um, those who come to Hopkins and make that choice are those who already are self-selecting into working harder than they ever have, both athletically and academically, understanding going in the balance will be difficult. And you will have to create this for yourself. And what I love about them is that they all buy in and they all lean into that and they really pursue excellence. And they also share the belief that they don't have to compromise one for the other. So we have students graduating, you know, with incredible academic resumes who are also graduating as national champions. And I think when you look at the athletic part of it, if you are that hardworking of a student and that ambitious of a student, that can only translate well to the athletic arena. And conversely, if you are going to work that hard at your sport and commit that much of yourself, that can only translate well to the academic side of the house. So it is very symbiotic, but it is not easy. And I give our student athletes so much credit for what they choose to do by coming to Hopkins and then what they're able to do. Their success is absolutely remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, it's good. It's good. Man, it's just so much there. I I love the idea that you can sell a group of student athletes on the pursuit of excellence and say it is hard, it's not easy, it's more difficult. I we had uh signing day celebration this past week, and I got to where I tell the group of kids who are signed or who have committed, hey, you've done the easy part, and they kind of look at you like, man, it was hard to get a college scholarship, but it's harder to compete at the college level, especially at a place of the rigor that uh Johns Hopkins is. And as you're answering that question, it's like I'm thinking, okay, are the student athletes there sold on being one of those notable alumni because of what they're doing post-college? Are they sold on the academics? Are they sold on the national championship level athletics? And it doesn't sound like anyone has any more uh elevation over the other.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

No, and I mean that's a really good observation. And I also like that you told your own student athletes that they just did the easy part because that could not be truer. No matter college athletics, it's an incredible commitment that you make of yourself, regardless of the level you're playing at, right? So um, and I think up until that point, if you get to the point where you can pursue your sport collegiately, you think you've worked hard, you think you've committed a lot, and I'm not discounting any of that, but I think you don't yet know what you're capable of. Um, and you're going to be pushed to new levels. But yeah, I would say the students who come to us to compete for Johns Hopkins and to attend Johns Hopkins, it's not one of those things. Now, some of them have very clear career aspirations and they recognize that Hopkins is a great vehicle to help them achieve that. But there is nobody there who's just there for the school. There is nobody there who's just there for a sport. Um, I would venture to guess that none of them aspire, like they're not just being a notable alum. They just want to do right by themselves and by their families and really discover what they're capable of. And I tell them, um, you know, in the times that I address them, like, I think you're here to discover the best of yourself. And we're here to create an environment where you're surrounded by others who are doing the same and you can push each other to do that. And that is what I'm trying to deliver to them over the course of their time with us. And that is not just in athletics, that is not just in academics, that is there's a holistic view of it. Um, and we really believe strongly in it.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, excellence is the goal for those folks, right? That's their aspiration, is to be excellent and whatever and everything. So that's really, really neat. Hey, hey, uh Jen, we're gonna hit pause kind of on what we're talking about here. We've probably come back to a little bit of that. But uh our podcast is built on lessons learned in leadership. And I think we'd be remiss if we didn't jump back to your uh Navy experience. We don't get many uh military and and especially naval uh military officers. So I think we'd be remiss if we didn't ask you to reflect on the lessons you learned as you navigated the Naval Academy and eventually becoming a pilot in the Navy.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Um that is a broad, broad question. Um, so I give my experience, I give my military experience credit for sort of creating me as the person that I am. You know, my growing up life, I obviously had um two invested parents who, you know, taught me values. Um, but when you join the military, it it is a different experience. And particularly, you know, when you join at that age. Um, and what I love about the academy is that it's they have an end goal. They understand like when when you graduate from there, the Navy is hiring you. Like they've already made that commitment. They're hiring you and they've are they're hiring you for jobs that's going to put you in charge of people and a lot of expensive equipment. And so they need to hedge their bets a little bit on who they're going to get for that, you know, entry-level employee, if you will. And um, so with that, you know, you learn very fundamental lessons your first year. And then every year after that, you have progressively more experience, progressively more opportunity to grow and hone your leadership skills, all within sort of this very controlled environment. So it is a lab, and you will hear it referred to um as sort of this leadership laboratory there. Um, it's not real life. So I want to like caveat that, but I think what was instilled in me there set me up for the realities of it. Um and what was instilled in me there. So for starters, the concept of servant leadership, 100% was instilled in me there. Um I do not exist for me, I exist to serve others, um, certainly other people. I serve a greater mission, I serve the United States of America. Um and so service and servant leadership, huge component of that. Moral leadership and ethical leadership, another big component. And this is one where there's a lot of leadership classes across the country, and there's a lot of ways to learn leadership. But I think the military uniquely talks about what it is to make the right leadership decision. And they sort of teach you um, it's not as simple as a framework, but they but they really help you to understand, like when you are in these scenarios, what how do you decide what the right thing is? Because sometimes it's two competing rights. Um, and they purposely put you in situations where you have to start to think through that. And everything is grounded in the Navy's core values of honor, courage, and commitment, but then they have a whole set of standards in terms of how they operate. And your job is to uphold standards. And the sort of the corollary to that is accountability. I like to think that I was accountable before going to the military. I was not. Um, and the reality is the military teaches you accountability because, in the absence of accountability, it's true that people die. Um, the stakes are very, very high. And so they need principled leaders who are grounded in character, who are willing to make difficult decisions, and who are willing to be accountable for those decisions. That sort of like fundamental core shapes everything I do as a leader today. Um I certainly learned it early on. And then every other opportunity I've had to be in leadership or to be led by others has put me in a scenario where that constantly gets tested, refined, and honed. Um, no leader gets it right 100% of the time. Like I fully acknowledge that, and I hope most would. Uh, but if you have a good foundation, I think you can at least get yourself most of the way there. And then, like anything else, there's free will. You're gonna make the best decision you can make at the time. Um, and you're gonna Monday morning quarterback those decisions. And some of them you're gonna be like, yep, I would do it exactly the same way, even though the outcome wasn't what I wanted or was difficult. And sometimes you look back and you learn not the decision I should have made. And here's what I will do differently in the future. Does that help? Is that

SPEAKER_02 22:00

100%. That's great. Yeah. That's a home run. Yeah, yeah. No, that was great. Now, I think that two of the most important character traits or characteristics of a good leader is the ability to express gratitude and have a sense of humor. I think that they're kind of lost in what we do. Uh you found a way to blend both of these in your thank you note post uh on Twitter a while back. Um, I believe it was in your first year of the position. You took a page out of Jimmy Fallon's book uh and did a little skit expressing your gratitude for the staff, student athletes, alumni, parents, community. First of all, fantastic idea and really well done.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

That was Jimmy Fallon's idea. So let's give him the due props.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

But good, good, okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

But we we did adapt it, yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yes. Uh if it was it was it was gold. Secondly, uh talk about the importance of tapping into that lighter side as a leader. It can't be all business all the time, can it?

SPEAKER_03 23:00

I mean, it can be, um, but I think it's it can be all business all the time. And there that's one way to do it, I guess I'll say. So here's one thing about me that I think is probably important to understand. Like, I am not, I'm not, I don't believe in a prescriptive formula for leadership. I believe that leadership has to adapt to the scenario and the personnel you have involved. Um, and the wise leader is able to take sort of the core fundamental skills and adapt them situation to situation. So there are definitely situations where it's all business all the time, no question. Um, could you do that for every situation in a blanket thing? Yes. Is it the way I would do it? No. Am I gonna tell somebody else they shouldn't do it that way? No. Um, so just that's my disclaimer up front. So for me, I think people rely on leaders a lot as I rely on leaders that I have in my life to have perspective. And both of the things you highlighted, humor and gratitude, go into that perspective. Um, and I think this is one area where my perspective is different because I was in the military. So I have been in scenarios where the stakes were very, very high. And you know what? There are athletic competitions out there where the stakes are very, very high, but it's still not the same. And so I really try to read, and this really goes to sort of the emotional intelligence empathy piece, but I really try to read the emotions of others involved in a given situation. And I really try to meet them where they are in that regard, acknowledge them and support them, however they're feeling. Sometimes they need to be reminded that we should all be really grateful. Sometimes they need to laugh. Um, you highlight that video, which was really about like it was gratitude, is a core value of mine, literally. Um, and I go out of my way to express gratitude, but I I wanted to do it in a way that was a little different, that might land a little differently. And so that was sort of the spirit behind that, right? I wanted us to be able to keep some broader perspective and be able to laugh at ourselves a little bit and all of that. So I appreciate that that you all that you all got what I was trying to do there. Um, I don't think you can thank people enough, if I'm honest, because I look, I mean, particularly in this business, it's really hard. It's really tough to have a work-life balance. It requires a lot of hours. Um, you know, broadly speaking, you're underpaid for those hours. And I can't ever necessarily pay people what that what in my mind they're truly, truly worth, right? But what I can do is let them know how much I appreciate them and most importantly, connect what they are doing to the outcomes we're trying to create and the impact that we're creating. So, in the case of that video, yes, it was a thank you. A lot of a lot of the thank you was to people who've supported us, um, you know, as donors or others. They help us create our outcomes, they help us create the impact. All of the amazing folks I have on my team at Hopkins, we see the student athletes and the students, frankly, that um, because I have the recreation side of the house too, that we graduate after their four-year journey and what they go off to do. That's worth acknowledging. That's worth celebrating, that's worth thanking them for the effort they put into creating that. Um, and then if I can make them laugh, I like to make them laugh. I'm not that funny. Um, I did not write that script. Um, so, but I I will try to keep it light where we can keep it light.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Yeah, but I will tell you that it you may not have written it, but the delivery was was spot on. So it it was it was good. Um I want to build a little on a quote I heard of yours once when you said uh it's unreasonable for us to assume that senior student athletes are going to figure out leadership based on what they've seen previously. They need to be introduced to it early on and they need to practice it. Uh, I couldn't agree with that more. I think it's a skill uh that needs to be repped just like any other uh aspect of an athlete's experience. I think it is short-sighted for leaders to simply assume that through only time and osmosis that kids are just going to become leaders, right? Now, that's not to say that you don't have kids that are just born with leadership characteristics and personalities, but leadership is mostly something that must be cultivated. What do you have in place there at Hopkins to help develop your student athletes so that they're ready for what comes next when they leave you, some of whom will land in particularly challenging and competitive career markets?

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Yeah, uh thank you for the question because this is really this is was sort of my foray into athletics administration, and it really has become a core of how I want us to operate. And I'm gonna rewind it. This really goes back to my time at the Naval Academy because at the Naval Academy, one of the things they refer to is the physical mission. Um, everyone there is required to participate in sport at some level. That could be intramurals, that could be varsity athletics, and they have a very robust club program in between the two of them. The reason is because they understand the Navy broadly, the military broadly, uses physical kind of activity and particularly team-based sports to develop leadership skills. And any of us who's ever played a sport can look back and reflect on that time and say, yep, I learned X, Y, and Z from doing that, right? There's just so much good that comes from that. And so understanding that sport is a vehicle to develop leaders and then recognizing that where I currently am, they're not in the military. So they're not going to get all the extra stuff that you would get if you did join the military. I think we have an even greater obligation to leverage sport to develop those skills. And the reason I think that is because when our athletes leave us, and you know, this this is not unique to Hopkins by any means, but the way I think about it in terms of Hopkins is I work with some of the smartest, hardest working like people you'll ever meet in your life. They're going to impact their communities wherever they go, just sort of by default.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

I really want to help them have the skills to differentiate themselves and make the impact they truly want to make in whatever community they choose. And that's what I owe them. I owe them this understanding of what they are learning as they are learning it and the opportunity to practice and get better when the stakes are not high, when they are not running an ER or an opera thing along those lines, right? When the stakes are not as high. So they have a chance to fail, to practice to get better, and then most importantly, to build confidence. Because when they leave us, I want them to really be able to step into themselves because the reality is they're going to go into whatever role they're going to go into as a kind of quote unquote entry-level employee. And very often, you know, entry-level employees aren't likely not going to have titles that beget leadership. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be leading. In the same way I think first-year student athletes should be leaders on their team. And there are ways to empower them. But so often the first thing you have to do is help them understand this is how I can do it, right? I don't need to make a locker room speech. I don't need to have a title. I don't need to be a senior. These are the ways that I move the team forward. And so it's really trying to adapt that. And what I think about it, and I'm I'm a reverse engineer. So I have two engineering degrees, I have two left brains. It's just how I think. Um, I want to start with the end in mind. What do what skills do we think athletes need? And in particular, what skills are validated by research to prove that they actually make a difference? Because there's a whole host of leadership, you know, kind of concepts out there. And then if we need them to have that at the end of call it four years, where do we start? And how do we build systematically year to year to give them the opportunities to practice that? And as I described that to you, that is an exercise. And I don't know when this is coming out, and I don't know if my head coaches will listen to it. We are literally devoting time at the end of May. This is one of the things we're doing together is every coach will sit down and kind of draw out this roadmap. Because the reality is to create those leaders, it doesn't require a Herculean lift, but it does require, in the same way that you would develop any other athletic skill, intentionality about how you build it into practice every day and how you create feedback mechanisms for folks so that they can, in the same way you'd watch film, right? Yep. I saw what I did on film, I see what I could have done better. I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna try it and I'm gonna, I'm gonna do better with that. It's the same thing. And so we have kind of some high-level programs at Hopkins that we've implemented, but then moving into next year, we're building in smaller cohorts that are going to hone in on specific skill sets that align more with sort of an athlete's natural progression. So as a first-year student, there's some core kind of skills I think are needed. And then what are we layering onto that in the second year, the third year, and so on? Um, doesn't mean we guarantee anything at the end of it, but we're trying to put our student athletes in the best position possible to develop those skills and have the conscious awareness of it. And I'll I'll this is sort of the last thing I'll say about this. Any of us who's played sports can look back and go, Oh, yeah, I learned that playing sports. I'm trying to nuts that timeline. I would rather them have the conscious awareness of what they're learning now in the same way that if you came to a campus like Hopkins or any other and you were gonna take a chemistry class, they're not just gonna send you into the lab until you figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

You're gonna learn it first, the concepts, and then you get to practically apply it and sort of discover it for yourself. And then you get to write a very painful lab report at the end of that, as I've called them. So, with that, same type of thing, right? We we have the lab. We just don't, we need to layer on sort of the conscious learning on the front end of that so that we can be really thoughtful and intentional with what we're doing in the lab.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Man, that that's really, really thought-provoking. You've said it twice now, once with Navy and and with how y'all do it at Hopkins about creating that first year and then layering on it fundamental and then adding to it with that end goal in mind. And I don't think that's something we think about as high school, but I'm sitting here thinking, all right, I'm about to tell my coaches you come up with a with a plan, a four-year plan, and show how it starts with the fundamentals and how you layer to uh to that end goal of what you want to be. And I think you you said it earlier, who is a Hopkins student? You know, for us, who do we want a Pope person to be? A Pope athlete. What do we want them to look like after uh when they walk across the stage, not just as a student, but as that student athlete who went through our individual programs, that's that's some really good stuff. Hey, would uh would uh oh sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

I was just about to say, like, I've helped a lot of people do this. So at the risk of like putting myself fully out there, like I believe in this so much that like I'm here to help in any way that I can. So if there are folks who are listening who don't quite know where to begin, the hardest part is figuring out where to begin. And then the rest of it kind of flows pretty naturally. And I do want to acknowledge that I think high school is challenging, maybe more so than the college setting, for a couple of reasons. One, younger demographic, right? Um, and so there's just just there's just a different emotional maturity, and that really is a spectrum um across sort of the high school ages, too. If it's a traditional sort of high school setup, they're well, A, they're gonna play multiple sports, right? So you kind of need to work in tandem with other coaches on it, um, because everybody's gonna have touch points, but for shorter periods of time. Three, they are likely going to progress from a JB to a varsity scenario, right? So the situations will look differently. So I think it is a little more complex at the high school level, but I also think doing something is better than doing nothing. Um, and it really is a matter of like small, simple things that you can reinforce and practice every day, which can allow them to start, put them on that growth trajectory.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, great, great stuff. Could could a definition of leadership going back to what you said to start um to start your answer there, you talked about any all of your kids. I mean, and I know not all, but almost all of your students uh who graduate, they're gonna impact their community, right? So that that kind of encompasses everybody. You're gonna be a part of some community and some impact, which makes you somewhat of a leader, but really leadership is someone who's different. And you talked about you want to create and you want to help them know how to differentiate yourself themselves. So could could a definition of leadership be someone who impacts the community but differentiates himself?

SPEAKER_03 35:06

I don't know that I would frame it that way. So let me let me um I say differentiate themselves and because the reality is that once we're out into the proverbial real world, not everyone will choose to lead. Um, and I do believe it's a choice. Um, not everyone who was tapped to lead will be well prepared to do it. And on a very fundamental level, not everyone can work well or wants to work well within a team environment, right? So there are some folks who do much better sort of working independently of a group. Um, and so that's why I say differentiate themselves, because when I the lens I look through is like the minute you show up to that first job, everyone there is smart, everyone there is hardworking, right? You've met sort of this basic qualifications, but not everybody is going to be either predisposed to andor want to or able to work well within a team. And I think of it as like impacting and influencing for sort of the common goal and common good. And so that's where I feel like the differentiation comes in. Because if you, especially as in your first year at your job, is comfortable stepping up and leading when called upon to do so, but also stepping back and following and being that good constructive follower, which doesn't get talked about enough, but is equally important as an act of leadership, you are impacting and influencing your team in really positive ways. And I would bet, I'm not allowed to bet. I worked in college athletics. I would venture to guess that not everybody can do that. Um, and I and I've and I say that because I've seen it firsthand. You know, I have we've I skipped over some of like the nitty-gritty details of my resume, but the reality of it is that I've worked in corporate America, I've worked in K through 12, I've worked in higher ed, I've worked in the military. The most successful organizations I've seen are the ones who have really strong leaders who are able to do that. Um, and the least successful organizations I've seen are the ones that lack that leadership. And it's not because somebody didn't have good credentials going in. It's just because when you're talking about impacting, influencing the people around you, peer leadership certainly is the hardest. But even beyond that, you know, understanding how to impact those above you, understanding how to influence, you know, those below you, whatever that looks like, um, not everybody has those skills.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Really good. Thanks for uh taking that and running with it. That's that's really helpful. So you mentioned a little bit about the uh, or we talked a little bit about the uh different layers and and different um kind of a plan for either college athletics or or high school athletics within your programs. Uh you you've also been highlighted as uh being good with strategic plans, right? Y'all just kind of rolled out a new strategic plan there at Johns Hopkins. I saw your name on a keynote uh address that you did last year for an institute, uh summer institute, and it highlighted this uh strategic plan. So it is obviously something that is highlighted and important to you. I I like the motto of be more uh in your strategic plan. I think that's a good word uh or a good phrase there. But the three categories or components to your strategic plan are phenomenal competitive excellence, student athlete experience, and community building. Uh, they're all relevant to everything we do as well at our level. Can you give us a sense of what a strategic plan does, first of all, for an athletic department? And how do you implement uh that? How do you come up with those categories and and make it really so good?

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Well, you're saying very nice things to me. So thank you for that. Um so I I don't know that I don't know that those categories are really unique to us. So let me start there because you just said like they apply, you know, very broadly. Um, so let me start with, you know, I I come from the military. I like to be anchored and grounded in a mission. Um, that's really important to me because when you at that point, you can then very thoughtfully tie all of your actions and decisions to advancing that mission and ultimately achieving that mission. The mission statement that we have, um, which is simple, my requirement was I have to be able to stop anybody in the hallway and ask them what it is. And if they can't remember easily, then it's we're not doing this. Um, so if if you can't internalize it, then then I don't think it serves the purpose that it could serve. And that's a personal opinion. Um, I actually gave that to a group of our team and I said, you all decide what it is. Tell us why we tell me why we exist. You all decide why we exist. And they, I let them really own it and develop it. And I love what they came up with, A, because it's short, um, easy to remember, B, because it captures really, I think, the essence of Hopkins. Like anybody who comes to Hopkins is there to be more. Um, and also because it's a clever play on words, because we're in the city of Baltimore, which is commonly referred to as be more. Um, so win-win-win, right? So that worked great. But then when it really came down to, and I didn't do there's no one right way to do this, but I didn't do like a quote unquote plan. Um, because in my mind, a plan connotes a 50-page document that sits on a shelf and nobody ever looks at. And that for me, like I like practical implementation. So I defined it as priorities and I bucketed those priorities in what I believe our greatest opportunities are. So um competitive excellence, you know, Hopkins, part of the reason I chose to come to Hopkins in the first place is because all of our teams were really good. Um, that is really fun. And I am an athletic, I mean, every athletic director wants to win. Um, I am not shy about saying it. We do not win all the time, but it doesn't matter. I'm gonna say it anyway. It is important to us to win. Um, why is it important to win? Not so that you can, not for the record itself, but more because winning is an outcome that is derived from a process that develops student athletes, um, certainly develop staff along the way. And it is a process, it is the outcome of a process that is measurable. Um, and so that for me is is why I want to think about that. Um, so competitive excellence was sort of an obvious one. Um, student athlete experience, they're the reason we exist. And so, yes, I want us to win, yes, I want to do those great things competitively, but I want our students to have the developmental experience that backs that. Um, and so, and that's an area where I think I've made the most investment. I can't control whether teams win or lose. Um, what I can control to a certain extent are the inputs that go into that process that puts us in a position to achieve that outcome. So that really is that student athlete experience kind of bucket. And then the last bucket, the community building, I believe sports bring people together. And I think it's our greatest opportunity. They bring people together on teams, you know. So the athletes themselves, they bring our staff together, they bring the local Hopkins community together, the city of Baltimore together, and then you can just extrapolate out from there. You know, Hopkins is a global presence. So we bring literally people around the world together in support of these, you know, tangibly it's in support of a team. But I think that is one of the greatest things about sports. Um, when you look at a great example, you know, Caitlin Clark in all the news. Look at the impact that she has had on community, meaning like all the people who have come together in support of her. That is incredible. And I really feel like sport is a really, really unique in the world in terms of its ability to do that and have folks from all different walks of life come together and be on the same page, at least in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

That's really good. I know my daughter, she's a she's a soccer player by trade, but she followed that whole run, you know, that Caitlin and them made, and she loved it. I mean, she loves watching girls compete, you know, and and so that's a perfect example of that. Now, uh, based on a bio we read of yours, you have two uh distinct experiences within your athletic leadership facilities management and leadership development. And we all have areas of strength, but it seems like those are two separate paths. You talked about being right brain, left brain, or it seems like those are two different directions. How have you molded these two together to form your overall leadership style as an athletic administrator?

SPEAKER_03 43:10

I mean, we're all kind we're all a work in progress. So let's just start.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

You got that right, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

We're all a work in progress. I have, you know, some what I would call kind of functional expertise in some very specific areas, but all leaders should be learners. And the reality is, you know, I took my opportunities where I could take them and aligned my existing skill set with what was required of a role. But within each role, I looked for constant like growth opportunities because I knew that I ultimately wanted to be an athletic director. And as an athletic director, you're effectively that CEO. You don't have to be a specific expert in everything, but you have to understand how the whole thing works together. And so that's where, you know, what's not necessarily reflected in a bio, but is very real is that at every opportunity I had, I raised my hand and said, I'll, I'll help, I'll do that. Can I learn more about that? Um And thankfully, I've worked with amazing colleagues over the years who have given me that opportunity. I will tell you right now, I am still not an expert on plenty of things. Good leaders will hire experts and learn from them, right? And so uh it's there are lots of different paths to a leadership, but B, athletic leadership specifically. I think it's really about like being that person who constantly volunteers to work cross-functionally and learning as much of the overall sort of enterprise, if you will. Um, and then putting yourself in a position where people will follow you. And that's probably the harder part. And they're not good, I mean, nobody's following me, I don't think, because I spent time in facilities management, right? Now, what it does do is it enables me to speak the same language as my facilities people. Um, and it helps in that regard. But at the end of the day, it's about being, I think, good, a good principled leader who cares for people and people know that you will support them and you will invest in them. And through that, they're willing to teach you, A, um, and B, they're willing to trust you.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yeah, I think I hear when you say uh people aren't gonna follow you when you um because you have a degree or have expertise in facility management. I think about if you have that expertise in facility management, you're probably picking up that piece of trash when you walk across campus and people follow that, right? So I think that's uh that's facility management at its core, right? Just just simply picking up the trash, not not about building a new stadium or something. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Although I would love, well, I don't actually want to build a new stadium because ours is historic. So I don't want to do that. Um, but there are buildings that I would like to build.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Absolutely. I hear you. All right, Jen. One last question. Uh something we're kind of doing this year to uh just allow you to share some leadership uh from a broad spectrum. Uh, but it's a uh a statement. We're gonna let you complete it. It's a double fill-in-the-blank. So I'll read it, I'll read it a couple of times so you can think about it. Uh, but there'll be a couple blanks that we we're gonna ask you to fill in here. Take it anywhere you want to take it. You can take it outside of what we talked about today or or wherever. But all right, so the statement is the best way to become better at blank is to become better at blank. The best way to become better at blank is to become better at blank.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

All right. Good question. This takes me back to I don't know if they still make them. Do they still make mad libs?

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Uh they do, actually.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Well, this feels like a mad lib.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Um it does.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

Uh okay. So I am not gonna overthink this. Let me let me start by saying that. So I'm going with the first thing that popped into my head. And the way I what immediately popped in my head is the best way to become better at serving others or caring for others, developing others, fill in the blank, impacting others, right? Um, the best way to become better at impacting others is to become better at knowing yourself. Um, I'm a huge believer in self-awareness. I think it is the absolute core of leadership. It's I this is probably influenced by just the conversation we had. But when I think about my role as a leader, at the end of the day, I want to serve people well. And I can't do that unless I know myself well and can operate from that space. And what I will also add to that is that is a work in progress. Um, so constantly trying to learn more about myself, constantly looking for people to challenge my thinking. Um always, always, always building that place of self-awareness. Um, and I think that is at the core of, at least for me personally, what has allowed me to become better at serving others.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Great way to finish our conversation. Thank you so much. You said we are saying a lot of good things, but we didn't have you on here to say bad things about you. We we barely know you. And we definitely, even if we knew you well, we probably wouldn't say bad things. But uh hey, speaking of knowing yourself and knowing yourself better, we finish our show with a two-minute drill. So we'd like to have a little fun with some questions here at the end that uh really aren't deep or or or in depth like we've asked. So we're gonna do our two-minute drill now. Hopefully you like this, and uh let Don start us off with it.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Okay, Jim, we're gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. You just tell us the first thing that comes to your mind. What was the first job? What was the first job you ever had ever in your life? Ever?

SPEAKER_03 48:32

Babysitter.

unknown 48:33

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

All right, what's the best vacation you have ever been on?

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Hawaii. Um, yeah, it has all it has all the things for me. So it's got mountains and oceans, co-located, very convenient. Um, but I love to be outside and doing things active. And um, I've not been there extensively. I've only been there twice, but both times I've been there, like from the I was up because I was on the East Coast time still. Like I was up literally as the sun rose, and I was in constant movement all day long through all kinds of things, and and then all of the tropical deliciousness that goes along with that in terms of food and drink and whatnot. So, yeah, that's that's I think I'd call that one it.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

That's a good one. All right, let's play a game of this or that. So we're gonna give you two things. You say this or that. All right. So unlimited games. So that could be board games, video games, games in general, any kind of game. Unlimited games, but no bacon. Or unlimited bacon and no games.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Unlimited games but no bacon. And and this is this is controversial. It is bacon. I'm not into bacon.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

That is a hot take. That is a hot take.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

Um, I I don't hate it, I just don't choose it. And so it that would be unlimited bacon would be lost on me, and life without games would suck. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

There you go. All right, yeah. Life without bacon might suck for me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

Uh I believe that. I believe that for folks. I I respect that.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

But you're healthier, so that's good. All right, this or that. Only air conditioning and no heat, or no heat and only AC.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

Only air conditioning and no heat. I lived in upstate New York for six years. I'm here to tell you I basically had no heat for part of that time. Nope, hard pass.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

All right. Uh, go back a hundred years in the past or jump to a hundred years in the future?

SPEAKER_03 50:25

100 years in the past. I am and I mean, we're in 2024 right now, right? So 100 years ago was 1924. There was a lot of interesting stuff happening in the world, and sometimes I feel like I was born in the wrong era.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

So I definitely go back. Good call. I think I'm with you. All right, last this or that question homemade food or have a professional chef each night?

SPEAKER_03 50:45

Oh. We saved, oh man. I love to cook. It's actually like it's something I do for myself, not because I'm any good at it, but just because it's it's meditative for me and it's a way that I like to unwind. But I can't cook what a professional chef would cook. So if I got home every day and somebody could make me my food, I think that would be. Can I make can I compromise? Can I make one of my own meals a day and then have a chef take care of the rest?

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Fair enough. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

It's your show. It's your show. Hey, we're just here.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah. As someone who does the cooking in our house, it is the first thing I think of when I wake up. It is the last thing I think of when I go to bed. If I could have somebody do it, I would gladly pass the baton to do that.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Uh I would just click the option to do it for myself from time to time because sometimes it really is like what I need to separate my workday from like getting ready for the rest of the evening.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

So good point. Now we saw a post of yours uh with a quote, Gratitude turns what we have into enough. What are you most grateful for right now?

SPEAKER_03 51:48

The people in my life. Um, and and that includes like I have sent texts to people this week, literally, that have said, like, I love my team, meaning like my team at Hopkins. Um, and I have people in my life outside of Hopkins who give meaning to my life um in so many ways. So um I think that, you know, there's a lot of currency in this world. I don't think there's any, there's nothing that holds up for me anyway, um, like personal relationships do, and um my ability to my ability to be vulnerable with somebody else slash somebody else's trust in me to be vulnerable with me. I think that's that's the stuff at the end of my life anyway that I'm gonna value the most, and it's definitely what I'm most thankful for right now.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

All right, what was your first vehicle?

SPEAKER_03 52:38

It was a 19. Um we're not gonna talk about the year, actually. Uh it was um, it was a Honda Accord, two-door. Um, and I got it in my senior year in college. Um, so that was mine, and I drove that thing into the ground.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

That's awesome. Uh, if there was a draft for your favorite candy bar, what would be your number one draft pick?

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Heath bar.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Hot take again.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Yeah, yeah. Um, Heath bar. There's there's some there's there'd be competition there, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

That that is my personal favorite uh Dairy Queen blizzard, is a Heath Bar blizzard. I don't really eat a lot of Heath bars, but for whatever reason it really translates with a blizzard. So just so you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

It's so good. Yeah, my wife makes some kind of little dip, heath bar dip for crackers or cookies. It's really good. So oh my gosh. It's really good. All right, let's finish with this question. It's our trademark question today. Jim Baker, you've been hanging with EADs, but let's say you could hang out with anyone. Who would that be and why?

SPEAKER_03 53:44

You guys are killing me. Um, I'm not good at thinking of stuff like this on the on the fly. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Last one.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

I know. You're gonna need to edit out my long pause here because I'm really trying to think. Like I'm trying to cross all genres and trying to think of somebody that I really respect um andor just am super fascinated by.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Great answer.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Um, yeah. Um, I have certainly watched from afar. There is so much that I respect about her from what she publicly puts out, but like I want to have dinner with Dawn Staley. So if she's listening, um, I am available. Uh I will happily accommodate her schedule. But um, yeah, I think she is remarkable.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Yeah, I the her post-game the other day after the championship game, it's a three-minute masterclass in leadership, coaching today's kids, managing your staff, everything. She did it all in three minutes, right after winning uh, you know, a national title. So totally, totally uh share that with you. Jen, thank you so much for the time today. We always appreciate the time that we get to spend with our colleagues at the collegiate level. You've helped us and our listeners get better uh today. And for that, we are incredibly grateful. So thanks again.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

Well, thank you both. This was a lot of fun and happy to help anybody, anytime, anywhere. So um hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. And I have to give a shameless plug. We're hosting a big lacrosse game this weekend. So go hop. Um, a lot on the line as we take on Maryland tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

What a great conversation with Jen Baker, Director of Athletics and Recreation at Johns Hopkins University. It was great to get to know Jen a little bit in this conversation. You can see that her level of leadership, her pursuit of excellence in leadership there at Johns Hopkins is second to none, really. Jen, thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing uh a brief moment of how you lead an athletic department at the collegiate level and how we can lead better uh at the high school level, challenging us in several different ways. You know, I think uh her comments about being a wise leader and uh what it takes to be a leader and how leaders should act were all great uh nuggets of wisdom for us. You know, I think we don't often get to see what leadership looks like inside a military academy, one of our military institutions. And today we got a small taste of that through Jen's um answers to these questions that we prompted her with, but just her style, her attitude, emotions, behaviors, and care and love and gratitude. All that comes from her from her heart of leadership that she uh developed at the Naval Academy, and uh she is now implementing and employing there at Johns Hopkins. So, Jen, thank you so much for making us better leaders. There's so much here. I'll just leave it at that and let you, as a listener, go back and uh listen again and take more notes, and I would imagine your notes are going to sync up with the three or four pages of notes I have uh just from this conversation. Thank you for listening. Uh, if you thought this was great, I know Jim would love to uh connect with you. Her her Twitter or X account is at underscore Jen Baker, J-E-N-B-A-K-E-R, underscore to start. So that would be a way to connect with her. Look her up on her website, and we would love for you to connect with us on at hanging with the A D on Twitter or Instagram or wherever you would like. We would love to uh hear how you uh thought of this um conversation. And as always, thank you for spending your time hanging with the ADs.